Does Shame Get a Bad Rap?

Shame is often seen as a negative emotion, but what if it has a deeper purpose? Join Laura and Rachel on Impolite Society as they dive into the complexities of shame versus guilt, exploring how this powerful emotion shapes human behavior and social norms. They discuss the biological origins of shame, its role in societal bonding, and the balance between healthy and toxic shame. From caveman instincts to modern social dynamics, this episode challenges the idea that shaming is always bad- and why Bring Back Shame is a common cry heard around the internet. 


Sources:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/unlocking-shame/202402/the-surprising-benefits-of-healthy-shame

https://medium.com/@sindykirks/bring-back-shame-thats-what-i-am-saying-7ab8ba7aab4c

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10426012/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6143989/ 

https://health.howstuffworks.com/mental-health/human-nature/why-humans-evolved-feel-shame.htm

https://bigthink.com/the-present/shame-machine/

https://bigthink.com/the-present/why-shame-helps-humans-survive/

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1805016115

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180910173734.htm

https://fs.blog/positive-side-of-shame/ 

https://lithub.com/how-public-shaming-helps-society-maintain-its-norms-and-ethical-standards/

Transcript

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 0:01

Shame can be so crushing, it feels like it's weighing down your very soul. It's the sudden flush in your cheeks, red faced and sweaty, a knot that tightens in your stomach. whispered word feels like it's aimed at you, and every glance a glare. But beneath a bad rap, sweaty pits, and a whole lot of social stigma, shame can actually be a powerful tool. Today, we're wading into the murky waters of shame. We'll unravel the tangled lines between shame and guilt, challenge the definitions we've been handed, and explore how this emotion has shaped our species. That's what you're in for today on Impolite Society. welcome. This is Impolite Society. I'm Laura.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 1:29

And I'm Rachel.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 1:30

Shame, shame, shame, Rachel.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 1:32

Huh,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 1:33

know your name.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 1:34

to me? See?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 1:36

Yeah. Because today I'm shaming everyone. I'm shaming you. I'm shaming the listener. dare you? How dare you listen to such a gross, inappropriate podcast from two mothers? Nonetheless, we have birth children and you're listening to this filth from our mouth. I mean, my mom won't even listen to this podcast because we turn, we curse so much. And because you talk about weird things, sex dolls, anal bleaching, child free women, save them. And to you, I say, Shame.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 2:13

Whoa, that's a, that's an aggressive way to start the podcast. I don't like this. I feel weird. I feel seen in a bad way. I feel small, kind of aroused, but weird.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 2:26

Well, good, because that's what it was supposed to feel like. I tried to make this convincing this is supposed to make you feel a little bit uncomfy. I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 2:38

Yeah.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 2:39

to sit in that feeling, keep it in mind as I go through this research, because today I'm going to tell you all about shame and how it might not be as bad as you think.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 2:52

What? Something that's uncomfortable might be good for you.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 2:56

I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 2:56

I mean,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 2:57

it.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 2:57

in moderation, right? Everything in moderation.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 3:00

in moderation. Okay, so on our episode today about the emotion of shame. Let's start with something easy. What is shame? No. I thought I would be able to do it easily in my research. Of course I did. But no, it's not easy at all.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 3:17

It never is. Nothing is, nothing is ever quite so simple to pin down.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 3:22

You think it will be right when you start,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 3:24

Well, of course it's a, I know it. I know it off the top of my head. Let's do it. And then it's like, no, it's actually way harder.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 3:30

Yep, yep, because humans are complicated. Society is complicated and emotions are complicated. And shame involves every single one of those things. So, of course, its definition is going to be really, really complicated. And so, Marion Webster

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 3:50

Oh, audible, groan,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 3:55

Yes, I am sourcing a dictionary here.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 3:58

Don't be, don't be too shamed, but a little shame's good.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 4:02

No, no, no, I'm not going to let you shame me for it. I'm not apologizing. Because this shit was hard. I had to find a place to start. Okay?

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 4:13

Mm-hmm

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 4:13

so. Merriam Webster says that shame is, quote, a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety. because this is actually the last thing I looked up when I did this research, a bunch of words in this definition jumped out at me, painful, consciousness, guilt, and guilt. That really stood out to me because. The first tricky thing that I tried to define in this research was the difference between shame and guilt.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 4:51

Okay. Let me take a guess before you give me the answer here. My take. My stab in the dark is that guilt is more about the individual. Like, I did something that affected a person. It's a person who I know, it's a person I can name, and a face I can imagine when I think about the thing that I did. As opposed to shame, which I can concoct more of the anonymous, nameless mob that would just be disgusted by me and my habits.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 5:25

That is pretty damn close, Rachel's. Hardcore props. That's really, really close and a lot of people use the words interchangeably and actually certain cultures have a word for one, but not the other. So they are different, but they're definitely tied together. But the most simple answer that I could find, I, of course, asked Google and Google AI, right? And it's like little

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 5:53

course.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 5:54

Yeah. Yeah. That's what it's recommended

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 5:56

You dumped a bottle of water on the ground. It's how it goes. Yes. Woo! Woo!

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 6:01

kind of fell into the trap that many of us have on shame versus guilt and have lumped these two into two very distinctive camps as one useful and one not so useful. So guilt, according to Google AI, focuses on a specific action or behavior. Can motivate you to make amends or apologize. Two, feels like regret or remorse over something you did. Flip side of that is shame. Focuses on your overall self worth or identity. Can lead to feelings of worthlessness and a sense of being, quote, bad. May cause withdrawal or hiding behavior.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 6:44

So guilt is what keeps you up at night, right? When you're tossing and turning, remembering something that you did. While shame is more about, like, what you feel when you look in the mirror. Right? Did I, did I, am I understanding that correctly?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 6:59

So, the way that Google categorizes it, and a lot of other people categorize it as guilt, good, shame, bad, but I think back to what you originally said as the definition, which is, I think, a little bit closer to the truth. The difference between shame and guilt, it makes shame sound pretty bad, uh, but I don't think it's that clear. And I'm allowed to not agree with that definition because the lines between the two are squishy. There is not one definition. And in fact, it is so squishy That Nietzsche has a whole treatise in his book on the genealogy of morals. Like it's a treatise about shame and guilt and how it relates. This research, it got trippier than I would have expected. You get too far into this stuff and it gets weird. I, I almost got sucked into this wormhole of philosophy, all about consciousness, moral existence, being the only existence, all about self identity. And even though I just got finished watching The Good Place. I was still like, not today, Satan. I am staying focused and just want to watch more of that charming, charming man, Ted Danson. So I didn't go down the rabbit hole on this one. I wanted to, but I didn't.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 8:23

Just like the finale of The Good Place, you let all of those Passing threads and things that you wanted to chase go through the doorway into the abyss.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 8:34

I did. I let them go. I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 8:36

Hashtag spoiler alert.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 8:40

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to boil shame versus guilt down to one definition that we can all understand and agree upon. But of course not because we actually agree upon it, because But because we need some sort of shared understanding to kind of move forward within this research. A researcher I came across named Jennifer Jaquette, and it is pronounced Jaquette because I was like, is this Jaquette? Like, I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 9:05

Is it quick?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 9:06

No. I thought I'm doing it wrong. Nope. She said it herself. Jennifer Jaquette. Uh, summarized it very succinctly, quote, shame is about the threat of exposure.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 9:17

Ooh.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 9:18

is personal.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 9:21

I don't want to be exposed. Don't expose me.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 9:24

So guilt is more about you, you feel bad about something that you did, whereas shame is a very socially motivated emotion. It's all about an audience or the possibility of an audience. So she gave another really good analogy. So imagine if someone were to publicize your internet search history from last month or Amazon purchases from the last 10 years. And that is actually a really fun exercise. I recommend that everyone do if you

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 9:55

For the last 10 years.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 9:57

I mean like just like a long period, and you're like, I don't remember buying that. Why did I need that? It's interesting. When you look at those things, you probably didn't experience any guilt about your Googling or your buying habits because you really weren't hurting anybody. But having the world see them, that is different, and that is shame.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 10:21

Okay, I'm tracking here. While I don't know if my search history, even this podcast, I could just say any weird make Google search I made is for the podcast. But even with all the things I searched for here, I don't know if I'd be all that shamed by my search history. Apparently, I'm not. It's pretty squeaky clean,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 10:42

Squeak,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 10:42

but what's not squeaky clean is my personhood here because Anybody who knows me closely knows that I am NOT always a daily bather. I'm sorry guys

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 10:54

I'm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 10:55

Yeah Yeah

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 10:55

bather. Not always, never. I'm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 10:58

Unless I'm exercising. Yeah. In the summer, it's more in the winter. No. do I feel personal guilt about not taking a shower every day? Not at all, baby. It is not. Um, it feels great. I got my hair is, is never oily guys because it's used to not getting washed. There's a trick to that. Would I be shamed if somebody Publicly aired out the last time I took a shower. Yes,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 11:29

You

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 11:30

like I do not,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 11:31

I would.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 11:32

I do not want the world to know despite the fact that I just talked about it on my podcast. But that's what I would think about like, okay, like what I want to employ. You guys, we're all friends here. We're all friends here. What I want my employer. Who is nobody. What I want You know, in that case, like that kind of level, would I, would I want just like a general person who I want to think highly of me to know when the last time I showered was? No.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 12:01

No, I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 12:01

When was the last time you showered?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 12:05

Last night, with a shower cap though, I don't wash my hair.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 12:08

Oh yeah, I don't, I don't wash my hair. I showered yesterday as well because I was going to the gynecologist.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 12:15

That's a good motivation to clean it up down there.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 12:18

Yeah. Well, I don't let them do exams, but that's,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 12:22

bully for you.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 12:23

I always just wait. I always do it though. Just in case. Cause what if they're like, we won't fill your prescription. Yeah. We won't fill your prescription if you don't let us look at you. And so I'm like, well, shit, I guess now I have to talk about shame.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 12:39

Put your feet in those stirrups and let us take a look, bitch! So, well, I, I had another analogy that was closer to home, but I mean, I don't think I can get much closer to home than looking into your, your hoo ha and stirrups. But I'm still going to say it because I wrote it. Um, I understand

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 12:57

you're just trying to shame me. It's okay. That's why we have a podcast and embarrass each other.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 13:02

I understand, through our communications, you recently discovered

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 13:07

our communications.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 13:08

journal of yours from high school,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 13:11

I did.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 13:12

you probably don't feel guilty about what you wrote in there. I mean, you probably didn't feel guilt then, and probably not even now. You were young. You were dumb. And the act of writing isn't harmful to anybody. Maybe. Maybe. I suspect that you probably have a healthy feeling of shame while reading it, because you, as a now older, wiser, and separate entity from your former self who wrote it, has discovered it. are ashamed of your former self who has been discovered by you. I thought that was just really interesting and kind of trippy.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 13:52

Yeah, I could see where, at first I thought it was more of guilt because I wanted to apologize to a lot of people. But, in hindsight, thinking about it, it probably is shame because to me, 16 year old Rachel and what she wrote down was all it. It was all just like, No ego, no filter, no upper frontal cortex. And when I think about that, I'm like, maybe I did feel shame, because what if I internalized that to mean, like, the innermost central version of Rachel just sucks.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 14:25

because everyone's innermost version of their self fucking sucks.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 14:28

Yeah, it was just like, wow, this, what a self absorbed, like, annoying, oh god. There's a line where it's like I don't think that we just found out today that this one girl doesn't like us me and my Other annoying friend and I was like, what a whore cuz that's what we used to call people back in the day and and hindsight I'm like, no that girl is probably very accurate in her assessment of me and my friend.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 14:53

No, we suck. We fucking suck.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 14:55

I Wouldn't want I like reading it. I'm like, thank God. I don't have to experience myself as a teenager

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 15:01

Yeah, and, and, and so it, it is interesting of this difference between shame and guilt and shame gets this really bad rap back to that Google explanation and the explanation that many people, uh, put forth. But my question is, should it? And the answer is, Is, of course, as often on this podcast. depends.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 15:24

I'll just say before we get into it shame is like my number one motivator It has made me a better person every day of my life. Let's go

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 15:30

There we go. Alright. So, psychologists tend to group shame into two categories. Healthy shame or toxic shame. And, uh, fuckin How we love that word. Toxic. Everything is toxic. Toxic people. Toxic friends. Toxic family. kidding aside. bad kind of shame, it really can be bad, and as someone who deals with a boatload of shame, for literally no good reason, I can personally attest to this. It can be really harmful to your well being. The toxic form of shame, it manifests itself as an inherent quality. instead of saying to yourself, I did a bad thing, Toxic Shame says, I'm a bad person. It's this negative view of yourself that you will find proof of everywhere. Because all you can think is how bad and how wrong you are. Like, I didn't get that job because I suck. I failed at this crossword puzzle because I'm an idiot. It's that spiral. It leads to anger, depression, isolation, addiction. All kinds of bad shit.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 16:37

Yeah, I would say that that makes a lot of sense but from the individual looking to the bigger picture Would think that there's also shame that comes from a society that can end up feeding those circles that cycles, right? like if If you go against the grain at all, it's very traditional that there must be something wrong with you.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 16:59

hmm.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 17:00

That's the story we're told over and over again. Say, like, there's something physically different about you and you're taught that you have to keep it a secret at all costs, otherwise people will be disgusted by you. Like, I'd say, I'd say that's pretty toxic.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 17:11

totally. And that, that's when it gets like down deep and starts to affect your sense of self. That's when it gets dangerous. the other side of that is that there is some healthy shame and that, that's the kind that I kind of want to talk about today, which is social shame. I know that sounds weird that social shaming is healthy, but I, I want you and everyone else to kind of hear me out on this. This is the feeling you get when you do something that is against the social norms. Shame is a social tool and it ensures that everyone keeps to expected behavior. Social shame or the threat of it, it really bonds a society or a culture together and it's actually focused on correction in its proper form. origin of this shame. is biological, and I'll get to that in a second. And its purpose in your mind is to keep your group's social rules front and center. You can change, you can grow, you can adapt, and then you can come back and be one of the group again.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 18:19

Because how can we trust that you're not a threat unless you are exactly like me?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 18:25

And this kind of social shame is universal. It occurs everywhere in the world, across cultures and continents. Economies, we've tripped into a few cultural universals in the course of this show, and here is another one. There is this feeling that is hardwired into humans. As a software developer would say, it's a feature, not a bug. A lot of people try to describe it as like, Oh, this is terrible. Why do we have that as a human? It's there for a reason.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 18:57

Right, and like when you say the biological piece of it, much like a lot of other biology about us, it's

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:04

menstruation,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 19:05

Yeah. It's brutal, it's utilitarian, it's unfeeling, like nature, right? And in the world we live in, it might need some of those checks and balances from those higher brains that we develop after the age of 16.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:20

absolutely,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 19:22

Ha ha ha ha ha!

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:25

So let's think about our cavemen ancestors and how they lived. We've talked about this before. High stress, high mortality, scarce food, and

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 19:33

The good old days.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:34

the good old days of, you know, I don't know, 500 BC. actually, even before that, I would say.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 19:42

Yeah, civilization. Civilization has been around for a long time.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:48

Yeah, I don't even know, uh,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 19:49

Jesus wasn't a caveman.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 19:51

People quickly realized we are better together, and we relied on one another for assistance and reproduction. Because let's be honest here, um, these dumb fucking human babies God, they need a lot of help to take care of them. Just one person on the, the desert plains, not going to fare well. So we relied on each other to survive and being valued by the group was a huge part of that. Valued member of the tribe would lead to more help with baby Nug Nug, right? More food, better protection. It's kind of like every doctor in apocalypse movies. They're not sending them out on risky missions. They're sending the people they don't like or the people that they don't need. equals safety, so anything that weighs against you in the value category is bad for you and your survival. So when the tribe members considered their day to day action, they had to think about how it affected their social standing. So say you were extra hungry that day and you wanted to steal the last, bit of the acorns in the acorn repository. the

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 21:04

Yum, yeah, very important.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 21:07

That action would have to be weighed. much would I benefit from stealing this food? how full will those acorns

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 21:17

How many calories can I swipe?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 21:19

Yeah Versus the social cost of the action. How much will others devalue me if they find out and then to add to that social calculation How likely is it are they gonna find out that it was me? And again back to brains just fucking amazing all this abstract and the value judgments and social judgments being made before you determine an action. Amazing.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 21:45

And I'm not even sure it's conscious, right? Like, I don't feel that Nug Nug was sitting down thinking this all through.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 21:52

Mm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 21:52

feel like all that experimentation with what is and isn't acceptable by the group that is your survival is all figured out in childhood, right? So, they probably tried to grab too many acorns when they were two and they whacked them on the hand. And told them, no, no, no, we don't do that. And they've done enough of this trial and error by the time that they're an adult, they don't have to think about taking or not taking the food. They know how much food they need to take and they don't question it, right? It's just, that's how ingrained these societal norms are.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 22:25

Yeah. And, and the purpose of that social shame is to keep us from doing those things that will make the people around us devalue us or our wellbeing. So it is this really useful tool. It truly is a feature and not a bug.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 22:39

To me, when I was reading this, It reminded me of our loneliness episode where we equated loneliness to hunger,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 22:48

Mm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 22:48

right? It's a feeling that we have, a physiological feeling that we have that causes us to seek action, right? You're hungry, you eat. You're lonely, you seek out other people. And I see this to be kind of the same side of that hunger analogy, right? Where if loneliness is hunger, then maybe shame is kind of like It's kind of guiding us along and telling us what we want to eat, what our body needs to avoid us being in that situation where we're starving and not being able to meet that need, right? So we keep the shame, shame kind of guides us so that we're not booted out of the group

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 23:27

yeah, and I think of it a lot like pain, because pain doesn't feel good, but it definitely serves a purpose. It says, get your hand off that goddamn stove, you're burning. burning the flesh off your hand. It's self preservation. So shame is the emotional pain we feel when damaging our relationships or our social standing. And if anyone listening thinks that this is bullshit, shame is created as a product of Judeo Christian values, the patriarchy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, many studies have confirmed that shame exists across cultures, large scale and small scale societies.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 24:08

I would bet money right here, right now, that there is some variation or some version of shame, even within chimps and other social apes. Because that's just, that's how these social dynamics work.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 24:22

Yes, I would agree with that because it, it depends based on your culture. Is it a more collectivist or individualist culture? So that will change the level of shame that you feel for different things. And the triggering actions are different across different cultures. But one thing that remains consistent across the groups is that the level of shame a person feels is directly correlated to how he thinks. are going to feel about their actions. And so I read multiple of these studies and it was a little bit confusing at first. I had to look at them a couple times. The consensus that feelings of shame are actually in lockstep with the values of everyone held around you. So you feel 7 out of 10 guilt Because you know your peers will think of your actions as 7 out of 10 bad. Does that make sense? Like,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 25:21

Yeah.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 25:21

correlated.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 25:22

And even the same kind of event might have different levels, right? So stealing a couple acorns in the summer is going to be very different than stealing a couple acorns in January.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 25:33

Absolutely. Yeah. And, and the amount of internalization you do. is directly correlated to that about how big of a difference it is it's going to feel. Um, it's the amount of shame you feel, it's never significantly more or less than what you believe your peers will feel towards you. And this pattern directly correlates It was found across all the people they studied. Tribes, small groups, towns, cities, countries. It didn't matter. that is the difference between shame and guilt. Guilt can be variable on a lot of different things because it's personal. You are judging you, but with shame When you know your group will despise you for something that you did. When you took those acorns in January, when it was the deadest of winter, and they did not have any food, you will despise yourself for it too, at the exact same level.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 26:30

Because honestly, when no one's watching, we're all pretty shameful. I see you picking your nose in your car in rush hour traffic. Oh, actually, that's just me in the review. Like when I'm in my car.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 26:44

nose.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 26:45

Yeah, when I'm in my car, I'm like, I might as well be on a desert island.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 26:51

And in that line of thinking, you can also Also feel shame for something that isn't your fault. if you did nothing wrong, if you are displaying a characteristic that you know your group will think negatively of, you're going to feel shame for that too. And that, my opinion, is where we get into that toxic shame. Because there are some things that are just out of your control. Some people are ugly. Some people are sick. These are things that are outside of your sphere of control. And the feeling of shame for these things is that double edged sword. This is the buggy side of that feature within human nature. Brains. Am I right? Yeah.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 27:38

out of your control, but just think that you have That you enjoy that go against the grain, but don't hurt anyone, right? Like, you might feel shame about loving to read fanfiction in the Omegaverse. But that isn't something that's going to hurt somebody. That's not something that, you know, you need to feel bad about because even if other people don't understand. And again, it's something that you're seeking out and you're choosing, right? That's what I guess I was trying to say there.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 28:06

Yeah. And it's not hurting anybody. I don't think a lot of people who are listening are going to know what the Omegaverse is. I didn't even know the term for it before I was talking to you about it, but, uh, in other words, if you're into some weird like You know,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 28:20

I think maybe more people know the Megaverse than we think.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 28:24

Maybe. We'll find out when your next episode of SHIP happens. But, Um, I get what you're saying though. It's not, it doesn't hurt anybody, but you know the group is going to view you negatively about it. So you feel the corresponding amount of shame

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 28:39

Yeah, so what is the tipping point from like, I'm doing something that's against the welfare of the group to I'm just doing something that's against the grain of the group. And that's where that toxicity kind of comes in.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 28:50

Yeah. And the bugginess, right?

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 28:52

Yeah.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 28:52

was a useful aspect when there was, when life was a lot simpler.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 28:58

In those good old days.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 29:00

exactly. So again, modern society has complicated things. Another universal is actually that display of shame and guilt, the way people slump their shoulders, they blush, they kind of cover their face. That occurs everywhere. Uh, the cause of shame varies by culture, of course, but the way we act when faced with the, the shame, it is the same. It's like laughter or a smile. We just do it. No one taught it. It just happens.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 29:28

So while my bathing frequency might not be shameful around the world, wherever I go, I can let others know I feel shame about it without having to learn their language,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 29:39

Mm-hmm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 29:39

is a universal language.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 29:43

So there, there is good and bad in shame, but that toxic shame that I mentioned, feeling like you're a terrible person who can never change for something that may or may not be your fault or something that doesn't hurt anybody. don't just do that to ourselves. Society can use shame in that same way. Basically social shame on overdrive. And I can do a whole episode on internet shaming because it's really complicated, but it's also kind of fucking scary. I mean, I, I'm not saying not to call people out who have done wrong, but I am saying that in the name and shame movement, I want people to try to remember what I think is the truer purpose of shame. And that is it's not to make somebody bow out of society, want to kill themselves, feel like they're a person unworthy of redemption. That's not helpful. That's more like banishment, or like, you know, a social version of public execution. The objective of shame, in my eyes, is to make people realize their actions are not okay, but they can change and they can rejoin the group.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 30:56

Right, because nobody ever really changed based off a zinger comment that somebody wrote you or whatever. You know, telling you to go jump off a bridge

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 31:05

huh.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 31:06

direct message, you know? And, to me, when it comes to this kind of stuff, it's like, is it even really that everybody needs to be shamed? People get so in their heads, or people get so myopic with their worldview. Like, just because you think it's right doesn't mean it's right to everybody. So, like, a lot of the stuff they're shaming people for, Sorry, my head goes to like mom content because that's like what I get a lot of but I'm like is it really somebody's doing Something wrong or they just doing something different than you do And so people are shaming each other for every little thing under the sun and it's like they're just doing it differently like like everybody calm down

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 31:43

Because everyone's attached to some sort of value judgment. Right?

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 31:47

to literally everything

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 31:49

It's awful. And then, of course, there's the other side of the coin that's also dangerous, which is trying to banish shame altogether. In this episode, there's a lot of sword edges, and coin flips, and

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 32:05

Everything's connected

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 32:07

It really is. This was a really complicated concept that I didn't expect, but I mean, I should have because people are complicated. Mmmmmmmmm.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 32:15

opportunity for me to work on something that I've been workshopping in my head for a while, but did not have quite the outlet for. And that is, on a weird mom adjacent spiral on TikTok, is I've fallen down this messy house shaming, which has been, I don't know if it's a trend for everybody or if it's just me, but apparently there's a lot of, I

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 32:35

you. Hehehe,

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 32:36

A lot of women who are posting videos of their cleaning their messy houses and talking about how they're coming out of depression and they're trying to take the shame away from the messy houses and Getting it clean and down in the town. On the flip side you have people with super clean houses Then shaming the people who are trying to clean the house That they had gone messy. And then they're saying there's no excuse. Right? There's no excuse for your house to ever get that bad. What you're doing is wrong for your family. Wrong for your kids. And we shouldn't be accepting it. We should be shaming people for it getting that bad. It's not healthy. That's what they say. It's not healthy.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 33:16

how bad it is. If you're talking about a hoarder house, okay. But, like, most of us don't fall in that

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 33:20

Yeah. Some of them are pretty gnarly. I, I mean, honestly, they probably do it. For the video, right? They just let it get really messy so they can clean it up for the video. Um, but there's like food. One lady had cat pee and things like that. So, it's like, it is, it's not healthy. And it should not be something that

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 33:41

that's unhealthy.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 33:42

yeah. That's not something we're proud of. But then I got my little wheels turning because I'm a contrarian pedantic asshole. So then I'm like, well, why is it okay to say that their house is unhealthy? Researchers show that kids don't survive, like don't thrive in those environments. Da da da da. Why is it okay to be like, that's not healthy, but then not tell somebody who is living in a very heavy body that that's not healthy either, right? Like, because you could, you can say, Oh, your house is disgusting. You're disgusting. You can't say that to somebody about their body. Right.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 34:13

because the

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 34:13

so

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 34:14

was creating that content shaming unclean houses was a large woman.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 34:19

One of them was. Well, okay, that's the other thing is a trend is usually the women who in the clean houses who are shaming women with the messy houses, that the women in the clean houses are heavier and the women with the clean house are the messy houses are skinnier. So then I feel like they are so latched onto this because there's some kind of power reversal.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 34:36

I can be the morally superior.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 34:39

society assigns moral value to body weight.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 34:42

Yeah.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 34:43

if you see a, you know, a slender person in the world, the society is going to treat them better than somebody who is heavier.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 34:49

Mm-hmm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 34:50

it was just fascinating. I feel like I could write a thesis on the psychology of it because I, that's why they're using that position to be like, I have a position of power socially over you now. So I'm going to like, wham, wham, wham. Instead of being like, yeah, your house might be cluttered, I'm But you, you know, like, you're not feeding your family chicken nuggets every night. It's just, anyway, sorry, that's like,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 35:12

No, I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 35:13

just an interesting thread to pull that I've been thinking about and I've been searching for a way to talk about it and it just so happened, like, when to apply shame, when to not apply shame, it just fits, it just fit in well here, right? When you're looking at, we shouldn't, we should exchange people for their houses, but like, where do we draw the line,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 35:31

It's really complicated and I see it in that healthy shame. Can help us see that we need to obey the rules of society in order to be a part of society. It can be productive. It can let us know that not every whim we have is a good one.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 35:49

And it makes us extra conscious of our behavior in public, too, when anybody can whip out a cell phone,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 35:54

Mm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 35:54

you, and then the world see your behavior.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 35:58

Yeah.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 35:58

That's like a very effective outcome of, uh, shame, a very effective tool of shaming people to be better.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 36:06

yeah, but then I feel like there's also been this weird reversal in the sense of like, no, nobody should shame anybody about anything.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 36:15

Right.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 36:15

so, you, you just need to. You know, except everybody and, and all their different stages of, know, disgusting house with roaches and, you know what I mean? Like, it, there was a time that being vain was kind of shameful. Like, if you had a picture of just yourself in a, on a canvas on your wall that looked like a snack, There was a time that would have been embarrassing. I mean, I think it's still embarrassing, but a lot of people now seem to just have no social shame and be like, what, I'm just embracing myself. I think I'm beautiful and I want to embrace myself. And, like when they whip out their camera at the gym and they get mad when people walk into their shot, they're all chanting the mantra of, I'm going to be the main character in my life and have ignored any kind of social shame. And it's all about being selfish in the name of becoming self actualized or self acceptance or whatever terms that therapy people are throwing around nowadays.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 37:18

Yeah, it is definitely the phones, I think, and social media that's having some effect on this, right? Because now, the shame is getting put down because victimhood is a currency. So if you try to shame someone, they just throw a bunch of things back at you that you can't say, oh, well that's, you know, that's not an excuse because mental health has to come first, all these other things have to come first. So because everybody is saying, It's so wrapped up in their victimhood that they don't feel like they have accountability and when there's not accountability, you can't have shame, right? And on the flip side, everybody's trying to shame people 24 7, that's why we have terms like Karen's and that kind of stuff. So now if somebody is trying to shame you, there's, it's just, everybody's been shamed for every little thing, every little inconvenience,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 38:04

becomes

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 38:05

meaningless, right? It's just such a weird time. It's just, Yeah, shame, like you said, it was meant to keep us functioning as a group, so when that age old refined system starts to break down, we really just all become our own main characters.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 38:22

Yeah.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 38:22

that pendulum swing, right?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 38:24

because the group has become so, uh, dispersed. There is no one group. There's like a

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 38:30

Well, right, because, yeah, the people you might care about are here, they're everywhere. They're not your neighbors, the people that you run into at the grocery store.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 38:40

hmm.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 38:40

why would you care if they shame you or what they think about you?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 38:45

No, totally. And, you know, I, I did like some shitting on therapy talk and I just want to clarify, I like therapists and I like therapy. I think that literally every person should do it to explore your mind and explore your emotions. But just the goal of life is not to banish shame and feel good about yourself 24 seven. It's unrealistic and in my eyes, it's totally unhealthy And as much as America is an individualist country, and I love that, truly I do, we have to live in a world that's populated by others. There are some social mores that need to be followed, some taboos keep to yourself, people. And I know we do a podcast about taboos, but also we're not going to talk about bestiality and give you a rah, rah, rah on this podcast, because I think that's something that you should be ashamed of. And not because I want it to fester inside of you and become that toxic side of shame that tells you that you're bad or wrong or that you can't be changed. But because if we are individualists, you shouldn't be seeking acceptance from everyone all the fucking time. And everyone who doesn't cheer you on as a barrier to your happiness. If, if that is your goal, you're just going to end up upset. Mind your business. Don't fall into toxic shame. Keep your shit to yourself.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 40:13

And I just think it could wrap back into that loneliness where if you are, Feeling shame that that's either something that you can work on and learn to let go or resolve what the issue is. Because I think when you originally wrote that line, you weren't thinking about bestiality.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 40:32

wasn't.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 40:32

But the way it came together is you made it sound like if you're into bestiality, don't let our judgment stop you. Don't look for our approval. Be you.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 40:43

that was not what I meant to say. I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 40:45

I know. I I As

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 40:47

damn self.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 40:48

As she started to connect the thoughts, I was like, this is not what she's intending. This was that she meant that don't look for external validation. So if you are somebody who likes Omegaverse and everybody thinks that's weird, like who cares? It's what you like. Yes. That's what you were trying to say.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 41:06

yes

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 41:07

The, yeah.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 41:08

shout it from the rooftops and expect everyone to applaud

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 41:12

But at the same time, growth comes from discomfort. So if you are feeling shame about something like your desire to fuck animals, that is an appropriate time to seek out professional help to get you through whatever you are feeling or dealing with that is leading you towards that proclivity. Proclivity. Is that the right word?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 41:33

Yeah, proclivity

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 41:34

Proclivity because there are some urges and desires that are not acceptable in society that are never going to be acceptable in society. And so just like,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 41:45

Slow your roll Mm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 41:47

mean, shame can be powerful in that way, too.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 41:49

hmm

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 41:49

it doesn't just make you hold the door open for people and try harder in your workout class. It also can, like we talked about, keep people in line in a way that's constructive for society. Yeah.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 42:03

Yeah, and so let's embrace some healthy shame I just just hide your smutty books on the subway keep your socks on in an airplane

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 42:13

Yeah, nobody wants to see those tootsies.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 42:17

Take your phone off speaker when you're in a public place use your headphones Embrace the shame. It's not all bad

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 42:26

And you know what would really be a shame? If you didn't share this podcast with somebody in your life. Like, please send this to someone and bond over how weird we all are here, right? Like this, we're all weird. You saw it. You heard it firsthand.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 42:45

Got a little ranty there at the end. Talk

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 42:54

listening, you like that as well. And your friends are probably just as brainy as you are. So be sure to share this podcast with them. And shame all your friends who don't listen to podcasts because they should be listening to podcasts starting with this one. Okay. Joking aside. And if you're listening on YouTube, smash that thumbs up and be sure to hit subscribe. You can also hit the bell to be notified when new videos drop every Monday now, cause we got those little chit chats coming. So yeah, just wherever you're listening, just It's more, it's like I'm talking into, never mind. It was like we're talking,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 43:32

the cavernous vagina of your gynecology

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 43:35

That's literally what I was thinking, but I wasn't going to say,

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 43:39

what you

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 43:39

I couldn't think of somebody famous enough for that, Who's that lady who got reamed by a thousand guys in a day?

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 43:46

have no idea. I know what you're talking about, but God knows I don't know her name.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 43:51

Yeah, so, um, It's like we're talking into her vagina. And now I referenced it again, so we can't cut it out. Yeah. Let us know you're there, whether that's by leaving us a rating or review. We like ratings. Let's just be real. I want to hear your thoughts

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 44:07

I

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 44:07

in your words. I'm, I'm in a review. I like reviews. I want to hear your words and thoughts and original ideas and don't make AI write it. But if you have to, that's also fine with me. I like ratings and I like reviews. Send us a note on Spotify. Let's you do that. Leave us a comment on YouTubes. We're on Facebook. We're on other places.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 44:28

Just, you know, the things.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 44:30

And we have an email and you can email us at rude at employee society podcast calm There's also a link to text us your rude questions thoughts or things that you want to shame us about Please don't tell us but if you want to do sexual things with us, that's just not what we're here.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 44:47

can do it to Laura. Rachel doesn't like it. Laura

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 44:49

I Don't like it. I'm just I'm just a baby. That's weird that you would want to do that to a baby a child a 32 year old child

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 44:57

years old. You're not a baby. Okay, okay.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 45:04

feel inside, don't shame me.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 45:06

mo Keep

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 45:10

as an adult baby. Okay? Stay rude everybody. Just feel the right amount of shame. And if you feel too much, you should feel bad about it. Okay? We'll see you next time. Don't forget, stay curious and keep marching to the beat of your own drum. Sorry.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 45:45

drank too much before I even started. Not good! Where's my fucking cigarette? Fucking hell.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 45:56

Yep.

laura-b_2_02-07-2025_213256: 45:56

is not what a professional does.

rachel_2_02-07-2025_213257: 45:59

Well, good thing we're not getting paid.