Society Selects: Why is My Naked Body a Crime?

Laura and Rachel are taking a little break for the rest of the summer but we will be back in October with all new episodes of Impolite Society! In the meantime, enjoy these re-releases of some of our most popular episodes. 

How did our birthday suits go from our natural state to being a crime? We expose the history of clothing and get to the naked truth of why nudity is so taboo in today’s episode of Impolite Society.


Sources:
BBC - Earth - We did not invent clothes simply to stay warm
Nudity and Public Decency Laws in America - HG.org
Why is public nudity illegal? The offense principle, the Bible, and taboos.
Barnes v. Glen Theatre, Inc., 501 U.S. 560 (1991) (cornell.edu)
Sex and Reason on JSTOR 

Transcript

0:00

Hello there socialites. Rachel and I, I being Laura. We are taking a little break for the rest of the summer to recharge. Relax. And get ready for that upcoming spooky season, which is just totally RGM. We will be back in October with all new episodes of impolite society. But in the meantime, we are, rereleasing some of our most popular episodes in our new, more streamlined format that you've come to know and love over the past year. There's less crosstalk, more info. More laughs. I hope you enjoy these rereleases and hope that it, lets your appetite. For more rude topics this fall. This week's episode, has it all. Naked podcast, hosts political philosophers. Pervy Italians. So take off your clothes, sit back. And listen to this society select. Why is my naked body, a crime? Enjoy.

Speaker 3: 1:31

This is Impolite Society, the podcast where we tackle the societal taboos one rude question at a time. Rachel and I take turns asking ourselves the rude questions that you cannot ask in Impolite Society. And I'm Laura. And yo, yo, yo, this is Rachel on the mic. Rizzy Ray! Rizzy Ray!

Speaker: 1:54

I just really am feeling like my inner Shock Jack DJ tonight.

Speaker 3: 1:57

Well, we're gonna get a little bit shocking here today. Have you ever had that dream where you show up somewhere in public and you're totally naked and you're absolutely mortified?

Speaker: 2:09

The thing is, I've had a lot of anxiety dreams. But no nudity. No nudity. Nudity does not exist. Come into my dreams at all, I guess. It's because

Speaker 3: 2:15

you're so prudish, you'd never even considered the thought that you would be naked in front of other people. You

Speaker: 2:20

know, but the older I get, the more I don't care.

Speaker 3: 2:24

Well, honestly, I haven't had that dream either, but I know it's a common thing for other people. Laura's like, look at me! Yep. And it's a really common thing. It's a common dream. It's a common anxiety. That thought of being naked in front of others.

Speaker: 2:40

That's why if you say to someone, Oh, your fly's down, they instantly go.

Speaker 3: 2:45

Exactly. It's mortifying. And where does that shame come from? And. Why could you be arrested if that dream was a reality? Why is my god given body being in its most natural form? Why is it a crime? This is the

Speaker: 3:00

way we all entered the world. It's the way we end up on that autopsy table and a bombing table that Laura used to work on. You

Speaker 3: 3:08

sure do. And in doing the research on this one, I went the, I went down the rabbit hole, like I usually do, so many directions looking at anthropology and law and history and all this different stuff. But Rachel, you don't even know how far I went for the research. I visited a nudist colony. Wait! This is not a joke. What?! I legitimately went to a nudist camp. No way! And I spent the entire day naked. Nude. How was it? Fuckin weird. Oh no! Okay, okay, what is this nudist camp like? It's like Honestly, it's like summer camp, if you've ever gone to like sleep away summer camp That's what it's like. It's got a pool. It's got like a little like office slash

Speaker: 3:57

lodge And there's no clothes allowed like even if you wanted to wear clothes, they would kick you out you fucking disgust me

Speaker 3: 4:04

if you are a visitor. It is not clothing optional You have to be nude all the time if you have property there.

Speaker: 4:11

So, okay, how long did you spend there in the nude?

Speaker 3: 4:14

We were there from 10 a. m. to 3 p. m. Jesus! So the whole thing with, you know, going to the nudist colony, it was this big apprehension about whether or not it would be a weird sex thing. Like that's the fear, right? Yeah. They're all a bunch of swingers that are all trying to just like, but they have very strict rules, no overtly sexual behavior to other people, no overtly sexual behavior to yourself. Because they don't want it to be a breeding ground for weird sex shit. Definitely. So, more questions.

Speaker: 4:52

A, how much does it cost to visit a nudist colony?

Speaker 3: 4:55

Uh, for an

Speaker: 4:56

individual, 40. For a couple, 30. And that just gets you in the door. Yep. You don't get any nude activities out of that.

Speaker 3: 5:04

I mean you could swim, um, you can walk nature trails in the buff. But what about shoes?

Speaker: 5:10

You can wear shoes. Okay, shoes, that's good. That's good. Okay, second question. If you're a visitor, do they give you like a little cubby or do you have to take all your clothes off in the

Speaker 3: 5:18

car and then show up? Honestly, I put all my shit in the back of the car. Cause like we're sitting there, like we park in front of the office. You go in, you check in. They do like get your ID. And I think honestly they do background checks, which I'm like, okay, I think that's good. Take your ID. Are you on some kind of list now? Apparently. Oh no. They like, there's a changing room there. And Austin was like, do you want to go in the changing room? I'm like, what's the point? I might as well just go

Speaker: 5:44

out naked in front of everyone.

Speaker 3: 5:47

Exactly. I might as well just strip right here. It, and so I do, I start peeling it off and I get down to my bra and underwear and I'm like, here we go. Here we go. The length that I go to for research. Oh my goodness. And it comes off and it's super fucking weird. Like just immediately you just feel so naked, so exposed. And then what was weird is I kind of started to get used to the feeling. Yeah. But then as soon as like I hear a car come by. You're like no! Yeah, exactly. It's like that reminder of civilization and I'm like, no, but of course all the people who drive through there know exactly what they're in for or they live there or they're doing something there. And it's funny because I always equated nudists with naturalists. Just like, this is the way our bodies were made, they're beautiful, they're wonderful, I don't need to change anything. The biggest thing that I noticed in this camp, every single one of these people, bald genitalia. Oh! 100 percent not trimmed, bald. So Many old women with no pubic hair. So many old balls with no hair on them, just a hundo percent bald. Wow. It was just shocking to me because it felt super contradictory, right? That, you know, you're coming here to be nude and to bask in your natural state, but you feel this need to, to alter your body. Exactly. It was overall, I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either. It was, it was an interesting experience and I'm glad that I had, and again, that blaring thing is that incongruity between naturalist, nudist, but apparently shaving all your pubic hair is the norm, which I think was just so weird. That does

Speaker: 7:45

seem odd. And okay, so after you've lived a day nude. Which seriously a plus for research this beats my only fans account that I made in. Thank you. Well, this really surprised me and I am delighted. I am just tickled. This was a great story, a great introduction and really an above and beyond and as much as we're changing lives of our listeners. We're also changing our own lives. Exactly. We're learning. So kudos. Kudos to you. Okay. Final question. And then I'm going to stop. I'm going to save the rest for after we finish recording.

Speaker 3: 8:21

How hard is it not look down constantly? Yeah, it was hard. You are immediately like eye contact, eye contact. I'm not looking, I'm not looking, I'm not looking. I'm not staring. And there was a one point like where some guy like as I walked by was like, hmm, like gave me a smile and I'm like, don't smile at me! Don't you do it! Don't even look at me! I'd like to think that it wasn't a creepy smile. Who knows? With that, as our introduction to the world of nudity, and Laura's introduction to the world of nudity, we're gonna dig into the history of clothes, what it means, the laws around clothes, why is our naked body a crime? Scientists and historians, they can't quite agree. There's not really a widely accepted timeline for the start of clothing because furs, textiles, these don't fossilize well. So we're kind of flying blind on this one. The estimate from archaeologists and scientists anywhere from 3 million to 40, 000 years ago. Yeah, just a little, little

Speaker: 9:18

blip on the timeline of history.

Speaker 3: 9:20

Yeah, it's a big fucking range. In general, I think the point we can all take away from this is, we've been covering ourselves from a long ass time.

Speaker: 9:29

Yeah, it's almost a part of who we are. We were born with some bidness and something to cover it up with. Slap that diaper on,

Speaker 3: 9:37

instant. As Homo sapiens moved out of the warmer climates of Africa and up into those cooler weather regions of Europe, they needed to figure something out. And those earliest coverings are what you think they'd be. Furs, leathers, leaves, all that kind of stuff. Leaves?

Speaker: 9:56

They put a little fig leaf over there?

Speaker 3: 9:58

Yeah, the fig leaf. You're like, ah. Or just like stuffing leaves in between fur, like to do the insulation. So anything that was wrapped or tied. And that was primitive stuff, but at some point, these ancient humans started to make real clothes. So they started to do textiles and cutting and sewing and that kind of thing. And then

Speaker: 10:22

they sold it on Caveman Etsy and they said, you can support me in my art, my craftsmanship.

Speaker 3: 10:29

Precisely. And when they started doing that kind of stuff, they started moving around even more. They went more Northern or crossed that land bridge or whatever in the Dire Straits or the

Speaker: 10:43

You know, that thing that brought people to the Americas.

Speaker 3: 10:46

Yeah, that thing. Dumb thing. And they needed to adapt to even more harsh environments, more clothes, different clothes.

Speaker: 10:56

I think every cave woman was like, yes, more clothes. I need, I need options. And then she's like, Oh my God, we're crossing the straight today. I have nothing to wear. And her husband's like, you had so many things to wear.

Speaker 3: 11:10

You have so many furs, so many grasses, so many leaves.

Speaker: 11:14

Yes, you got three grasses yesterday. What do you mean you have nothing to wear?

Speaker 3: 11:20

Uh, I have a feeling that came a lot later, as people started moving around and there's a lot more geography being covered. Societies naturally start to form. So as these hunter gatherers become farmers, people start to mix together. They're in smaller spaces and clothes took on a new meaning. And that was status. We can't possibly be going around thinking we're all equal.

Speaker: 11:49

That's not how humanity works.

Speaker 3: 11:51

Exactly. We, we have to know who is better than everyone else, who is below everyone else, and who is at your level. These are things that humans need to know. Archaeologists, smart people around the world, they're not a hundred percent sure when this kind of status happened, but at least by the time that we got to the ancient Mesopotamians, which is between the fourth and sixth century BC, clothes started to mean something. And the societal opinion was, it was better to do some things naked. You don't need your loincloth getting caught in this newfangled wheel, right? Or your toga flapping around like a matador's cape, making that lion mad. So it was better to be naked when you're doing stuff like work. To be nude meant that you had to work, which means you were poor. Like

Speaker: 12:45

Women volleyball players, you needed the mobility, right? That's why they wear those little spandex shorts, not for perverted reasons, because they need mobility. And apparently the best way to get mobility is by being as close to naked as possible. Well, these ancient individuals would absolutely agree with you. Ancient individuals and ninth grade girls, volleyball coaches

Speaker 3: 13:09

on the same page as God intended.

Speaker: 13:13

Yes, yes. That's why are we all not playing sports in the nude. That's what I thought when I watched the Olympics. Every session, I'm like, too many clothes.

Speaker 3: 13:23

It was better to be naked when you're doing stuff like work. To be nude meant that you had to work, which means you were poor or a lower class or a slave. This spans kind of across the Mesopotamians, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, and on and on and on and on and on.

Speaker: 13:43

Well, I think that that just put a nice bow in it. We wear clothes cause we want to appear like we're higher status than we actually are. Put a bow on it. Done. We wear clothes so we don't look poor.

Speaker 3: 13:52

Exactly. And, and the shame of being nude, it had didn't have anything to do with sexuality yet. It was the shame of being without your status. You are exposed in a metaphorical manner. This sexual connotation of being nude. It didn't come until a lot later since. Like I said, so many things were best done in the nude. It was functional and impractical to wear clothes. And who can afford to be impractical? And we all want to be rich. Then, after it kind of had this general feeling of clothes are better, makes you more, Upper class, snooty, snooty. There was a little exception to this. We got the Greeks. They love to be nude. They love showcasing their athletics. Oh,

Speaker: 14:37

they fucking love to be nude. They're like, make me naked anytime, any way till Sunday. Any excuse to take their pants off. Oh, I'm throwing a disc. Better take these jars off.

Speaker 3: 14:49

But even after the Greeks, we had the Romans and they came to power, took over most of the world in the Roman empire, and they adopted the toga. This was their status announcement. Cicero, the emperor, he thought that. Quote, exposing naked bodies amongst citizens is the beginning of public disgrace.

Speaker: 15:11

Ooh, so why did he think that? What was about the naked bodies that would make him think that it was public disgrace? That they felt

Speaker 3: 15:19

the Greeks being naked and doing all this naked athleticism was homoerotic. Oh, but wasn't it? They absolutely were. As time started to march on, cities, towns, they get bigger, there's more of a defined social class that. Pops up around the world, not just in the Roman culture.

Speaker: 15:40

Like you said, we got to judge people. We have to determine their worth by like material signifiers. On first glance, we have to be able to determine. I need to know how valuable you are to society just by looking at you.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Through this growth, a sort of a middle class kind of emerged, though really how middle class was it in ancient Rome and the likes, but it became more and more important in everyday life to be able to signify that. But of course there were other influences to this, the one that I think that we would all expect. Which is the rise of Christianity. They adopted their style of dress from the Jews, and they had a big influence on being modest, and keeping covered, and,

Speaker: 16:25

hmm. And then

Speaker 3: 16:26

Islam popped up. They also put a high emphasis on being modest, especially the women. They took it to the nth. As we are seeing in the

Speaker: 16:35

moment. Do you, you have to see, that's about it, but the rest of you should be under a sheet.

Speaker 3: 16:41

Honestly, they should be thankful they can even allowed to see.

Speaker: 16:45

Yeah, no kidding. But sometimes I do think that would not. That not be freeing to just throw on a burqa every day and not have to do my hair and makeup? Am I just in a different form of a burqa?

Speaker 3: 17:00

That's kind of what they say. My dad went to Saudi Arabia and he said it was so interesting because you see all these women in these burqas, like the full face covering, you know, just the eyes out, but you can see underneath their feet. Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack. They're all wearing like super high heels.

Speaker: 17:16

Oh God.

Speaker 3: 17:17

Cause Saudi Arabia is outrageously rich. Like everyone in there is basically an oil baron.

Speaker: 17:24

So they're wearing fucking Louboutins under their burqa? Yeah. And like super high fashion stuff. Oh, you're not influenced by the Western world. You're not corrupted by the Western world. Get the fuck out of here. It's Saudi Arabia. They're our allies.

Speaker 3: 17:36

We're Saudi Arabia. Selling'em planes left and right. Oh yeah. You know, use their own thing. Mm-Hmm. We're busies Um, quote,

Speaker: 17:43

but it's just like, if I had to wear burka every day, I'd be wearing fucking sweats. And I'd be rolling around in my fucking Skechers walkables. And I'd be like, you know, this is what God wanted. He didn't want me to be hot. He wanted me to be under a blanket. With a full bush. He sure did. Who am I to argue it?

Speaker 3: 18:04

And as we all know, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, these are the three religions that pretty much took over the world. So a taboo was born and at this point it's just a little baby taboo. It's just

Speaker: 18:16

a little, it's just a little baby. It's like opening its eyes and it's got like the no teeth kind of like sucky face like.

Speaker 3: 18:26

Yep, because it is still acceptable to be nude. Like when you're bathing in public places, when you're swimming, when you're doing late manual labor and that kind of thing. People recognize that the sense. of being naked, but around the 1500s, this is where our baby taboo, it starts to, you know, go through puberty, get, get a little beard, get a little angsty. Yeah. Like it's balls dropped with

Speaker: 18:53

velocity.

Speaker 3: 18:54

Yup. Europeans, they started to expand their territories, started to colonize other areas, other more remote areas. They started to meet the naked savage. So all these Aboriginal people who knew, it's hot around here. I don't need to be covering up all this stuff, getting my swamp ass, my under boob sweat going on. They're smart. They know to keep their clothes off.

Speaker: 19:21

Yeah. Their textiles back then were not moisture wicking. They were moisture trapping. Precisely.

Speaker 4: 19:26

So

Speaker: 19:28

you were, you don't want to be swimming in your own swamp all day.

Speaker 3: 19:31

Precisely, and that nakedness of these aborigines, they reinforce the European idea that they were more civilized. They're a higher class and a higher grade and therefore more human. Than these other people who let their dangly bits just dangle.

Speaker: 19:50

As Bridget Jones would say, her wobbly

Speaker 3: 19:52

bits. And when slaveholders acquired more slaves, they would baptize them to make them Christian and they would clothe them. Thus, civilizing them and making them part of the European world, the European tribe.

Speaker: 20:09

The Western world.

Speaker 3: 20:11

And then by the Victorian era, and this is around the 1800s, nudity, it's done. It's had its heyday. It was 100 percent associated with shame, sexuality, immodesty. The idea was keep yourself clothed.

Speaker: 20:24

And not even just keep yourself clothed, but Wear clothes that change your body shape. Like it, it's insane the lengths that they went to, to make themselves not look like normal humans. It's like, I'm going to take this. bone of an animal from the ocean, I'm gonna put it in some garment and I'm gonna use it to pretend I look different than how I look. Like, that's really taking clothing to the

Speaker 3: 20:51

max. So in the Victorian era, there's all kinds of religions and different kind of branches of Christianity popping up, each more conservative than the last. It was a time of, of high collars, buttoned to the nth degree, corsets that, you know, Cinched your waist as tight as can be to also somehow be sexual and idealized at the same time. It was a very confusing time. We're still unpacking the

Speaker: 21:14

repercussions of that era to this day. Yeah, we totally are. But also during this time, I mean, over the last couple hundred years, the human body, day to day, was like, cover up, cover up, cover up. But like, The human figure in art was very prevalent through all this stuff.

Speaker 3: 21:32

And this was part of all the rabbit hole that I went down. The resurgence of nudity in art and kind of the fascination with this art and then how it's art depicted people. Nude, but then in real life, everyone was closed and how breasts didn't become sexualized till actually really late. That's why you'll see middle ages and even some French and beginning of Victorian era with boobs hanging out because they didn't become super sexual until later.

Speaker: 22:00

They used to wear like corsets and then your nipples would be out over the top to signify you were young and like they were perky. And there was one French aristocrat, maybe she was the mistress of a king. She had her dresses. Tailored so that her favorite breast was always out. She was like, yes, this is my good breast. This is

Speaker 3: 22:19

the good one. Everyone look at the good one. My good breast. It's a really complicated road. I had to boil it down to kind of its basic things to get to the heart of this episode, which is what's the law side. And, I'm, I'm gonna get to all that law stuff in a second. I'm so pumped. But in general, it wasn't a big issue in the U. S. We didn't need to lay down these laws right away about nudity. But in the late 1800s, Nudists started to make waves in the U. S. So the concept of nudists and naturalists, as I talked about at the top, nudists and naturalists, this concept was started by the Germans and it was called Fry copper culture. Fry copper culture. Frank Cooper Kocher, Frank Cooper Kucher. It means free body. Ooh, I like that translation. So they started it in the late 1800s, Germans brought it to the U. S. in the 20s. I wonder

Speaker: 23:22

what they were running away from.

Speaker 3: 23:24

Hmm, weird, in the 20s. And the first nudist association was born in 1929. It was called the American League for Physical Culture.

Speaker: 23:35

Really hearkening back to those Greeks, you know? We're going to do some Lance tossing and Lance tossing. You need to have your Lance out.

Speaker 3: 23:44

Lance out. I like that. So they opened their first nudist colony in the U S in New Jersey in 1932, which is its whole own story. And the association, this place has changed their names a bunch of times throughout the years, always looking to rebrand. Just get just the right hook. Keep with the times. Yes, and right now it is the American Association for Nude Recreation. A A N R. The club that I visited was a part of the A A N R. They're chartered and all these different clubs that pay dues, part of this association to be in the club.

Speaker: 24:24

That's really good to know that you can be naked and still have to deal with bureaucracy.

Speaker 3: 24:29

They had brochures at the wazoo in the office. I took them, you know, for research. And again, a lot of the people didn't have pubic hair, which is again, just so confusing.

Speaker: 24:40

Not naturalist, that's for sure. No,

Speaker 3: 24:43

I feel like there's some sort of split that I'm not aware of, you know, like nudist and naturalist are two separate things. But anyway, I guess it just varies by, by location.

Speaker: 24:52

Oh, yeah, if you're, if you're a nudist and or a naturalist, let us know the difference and how we can get involved with the naturalist. We want to just hang out with real bodies. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 25:02

with my bush hanging out and my non fake boobs hanging out.

Speaker: 25:05

Yes, hanging, hanging out. Low.

Speaker 3: 25:07

Hanging low.

Speaker: 25:10

Oh my god. Nature is cruel.

Speaker 3: 25:12

It's, it's rough. It's rough, Rachel. You've only begun your journey. So when did it become illegal? That's the next question. And again, disclaimer, real talk here. This research was hard. It was hard to find. It was hard to understand. So I'm just going to say at this top real quick, I'm not a lawyer. I'm no expert, but I'm going to do my best for you guys. Okay. I

Speaker: 25:32

mean, honestly, I think you should write to Laura with your legal questions at this point. She's essentially a paralegal, if not a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. Well, there you

Speaker 3: 25:41

go. And so let me dive into what I've. Kind of learned here. One thing I can state definitively, there are no federal laws in the U. S. that are on the book about being nude in public. It is all at the state level. And try as I might, I could not find any information on when the first U. S. State laws about public exposure or public indecency were enacted. I tried really freaking hard and I couldn't find it. So what I did find was the first news article that was about indecent exposure. And this was in the 1870s in Sacramento, California. In California? I feel like they would like the news. Yeah, I know. It surprised me a little bit too. I know. It was some Italian guy, out there on the street, waggling his ding dong at school kids.

Speaker: 26:30

Ah, would you like to, uh, pull on my spicy Italian sausage? Mmm, I kinda sounded a little Transylvanian there at the end.

Speaker 3: 26:39

I think that's close enough. And, predictably, they arrested his ass. And I say good made a lot.

Speaker: 26:46

They were like, I don't know what he's doing, but you can't do that.

Speaker 3: 26:50

But that is bad. I know that.

Speaker: 26:52

Yeah. I ain't never seen that before, but I know it's illegal.

Speaker 3: 26:57

And the state laws across the border are different and very confusing. So some have, Laws that specify that genitals or sex organs can't be displayed. Others say nipples, count. Some say that they don't count. I think all of them give exception for breastfeeding, but like just being topless, yeah, there, there's a lot

Speaker: 27:17

there. I feel like the only illegal sex organ should be a penis because no woman, no woman is going out in public and it's like, Look at this! Flickin her, flickin flickin her bean and be like, look at this! No, you're trying to tell me I was to give birth on a park bench that I would be committing a sex crime? That's the patriarchy. No, no, I think

Speaker 3: 27:42

we all know exactly who this is aimed at, and that's Italian perv in Sacramento in the 1870s. Who is telling children to yank

Speaker: 27:49

his spicy sausage. Yeah,

Speaker 3: 27:53

precisely. And some of these state laws, they specify that there must be an intent to arouse. So just being naked isn't against the law. It's not. being salacious, you're tugging on your spicy sausage, you're rolling your nipples around that that is illegal. And the general gist that I got, and I, I could totally be wrong here, is that there's not a lot of convictions coming down from the bench that are about public nudity unless you're committing a sexual offense. So, again, waggling your dick at people and being like, eh. Oh, you want the spicy sausage? You want to buy a spicy sausage. The gist that I got is if you're just trying to be nude on your own, you're not bothering anybody, you might get the cops called on you, but you're probably not going to go to like legit prison. Again, disclaimer, if you take my advice and you end up in the pokey, I'm, I'm not claiming any responsibility for that.

Speaker: 28:49

We're revoking it. You, by listening to this, you have signed a, Limited liability waiver we're not legal advice. I think it's very clear that we don't know what the fuck we're talking about 80

Speaker 3: 29:01

percent of the time. Well, speaking of not a layperson. This is the smart dude named Richard Posner, used to be on the U. S. Court of Appeals. What it comes down to are two amendments in the Constitution. The first amendment, which protects your right to free speech, and the second thing, which is the state action clause of the 14th amendment. Which we all know, of course, I don't even need to say it.

Speaker: 29:27

Yeah, yeah, I know the 14th Amendment off the top of my head. I got my Bill of Rights and Subs In fact, not even

Speaker 3: 29:34

just the 14th Amendment, the State Action Clause, which just means it's buried even further down. Yes.

Speaker: 29:40

Did you not learn that in your civics class in high school?

Speaker 3: 29:46

For those who didn't get their Juris Doctorate at the Impolite Society University, this states quote, A state cannot make or enforce any law that A bridges the privileges or immunity. Of any citizen. You have the right to free speech, and you have the right to do what you want. As long as it isn't against the law, which again, doesn't impugn the privileges or immunity of it. You can see where the circle kind of goes around and around and around there. This is the most, like, legalese implied society ever created. It, it, it was a deep dive, like I said. And there wasn't a lot of case law that I could find, cause. I'm not a lawyer, about an individual's right to be naked and do their own thing in their own space, or, you know, in the backyard, or in a semi public space. But there is case law, and this was off sided, so I felt like it was pertinent to our conversation here. It was about nude dancing.

Speaker: 30:47

Nude dancing?

Speaker 3: 30:49

Yes. And this was more recent than I thought it was. When you think about this kind of stuff, I would think that it would be in like the 60s, the 70s? No. I 1991. This is the precedent of case law and this case made it to the Supreme Court. It was Barnes versus the Glenn Theater. So they wanted to open a titty bar in South Bend, Indiana, and the town said, no fucking way. It's against our public nudity laws. Made its way up the chain all the way up to the Supreme Court and the kitty cat lounge,

Speaker 5: 31:25

which was the

Speaker 3: 31:26

club. They said this was a violation of the first amendment rights. Freedom of free speech, freedom of expression. And in the end, the court, they determined that the state has the authority to ban public nudity because it furthers the government's main goal, which is protecting the order of society.

Speaker: 31:47

No, I mean, you lost me a little bit, but this whole thing is very perplexing. A. Government should not tell you what to do in your business. If you want to have a titty bar, have a titty bar be, why is this going all the way to the Supreme court? Huge waste of taxpayer dollars. They just wanted to talk about tits on the public record. So having somebody dancing naked is against the order of society.

Speaker 3: 32:14

Yes. And so it comes down to the town. They had a lot of reasons. They said they didn't want a new club. It would drive down property values, bring up crime, bring up like hygiene, all this kind of stuff. Right. Bring down the hygiene of the

Speaker: 32:26

community. I can't shower. I have to spend my time at the kitty cat club.

Speaker 3: 32:34

But it, the real heart of the matter is that the Supreme Court decided it didn't violate their First Amendment rights because, quote, nudity itself is not inherently expressive conduct.

Speaker: 32:47

I feel that. Yeah. I feel like saying that, oh, it's my First Amendment right to be naked and sexually naked. I didn't feel like that fit either. Nothing about this story makes sense. Like nobody, I don't think anybody's in the right, to be fair.

Speaker 3: 33:02

It's, it's really murky. It's really confusing. I mean, I read a bunch of stuff about this and trying to, to go really, really deep and it made me think a lot about a lot of different things, but we're not talking about strippers today. We're talking about people just going about their business, being naked. Why is that a crime? Why is my body a crime?

Speaker: 33:23

Why can't I walk up my front door and say. Hey, world. This is me.

Speaker 3: 33:28

Yeah, exactly. And the spirit of these public nudity laws is that you shouldn't be doing indecent things in public where people who don't want to see you have to see you. Like being naked, masturbating, having sex. You know, it's considered this form of sexual harassment. You don't want to see some dude waggling his dick at you and not have anything to say about it, right? And again, that comes into the play with the state laws about intent and things like that, but it's different across the board. It's, it's a hard thing to, to put your finger on. And the justification for these laws seems to be about this interesting thing called the offensive principle. And This legal theory, it states that quote, individual liberty is justifiably limited to prevent offensive behavior, end quote. So this generally is talking about the moral standings or the feelings of the society around you. So society as a whole is offended by your actions, then it's right to outlaw it. And. I think this goes along with the general feeling of our country and our government, which is by the people, for the people, right? The law, the law upholds what the society is feeling, right?

Speaker: 34:51

Yes, I definitely agree with this. And I've. I feel like this might come up in the musing sections, but this seems like conversations we've had before, where is it legal to limit things that the public or the overall general public deems as offensive?

Speaker 3: 35:09

Yep. Yep. But there are all kinds of things that everyone thinks that are offensive that aren't against the law. You know, when you pick your nose, right? Nobody thinks that that's Great, you're not bathing and you're stinky, you know, chewing with your mouth open. Nobody's a fan of any of that. I feel personally targeted by all

Speaker: 35:32

of these. If offensive is illegal, then we definitely need the Impolite Society law firm to cover us because we exclusively talk about things that are offensive. Outside cultural norm. I don't think anybody's like yes sex dolls. Give me more of that. Yeah

Speaker 3: 35:50

So, I mean, that's the question. So why is nudity different from all of those other things? And the reason why it's different seems to be because nudity is so hard to ignore.

Speaker: 36:01

Yeah, it is. I would definitely agree. So political philosopher, wow, we're reaching that level. Political philosophy. Yeah. I know. You were not kidding when you said you went deep in the research.

Speaker 3: 36:13

Because it was freaking hard to figure out. Political philosopher, Joel. Feinberg, he theorized that nudity is completely unique in how it demands our attention, that there is this conflict inside all of us between being aroused by nudity, but then being repulsed by it because of our cultural and sexual taboos. So you see a naked person, you're like, Ooh, naked. You're wanting to look and you're wanting to explore and wanting to see what that's all about. Yeah, you're titillated, but then at the same time, you're also disgusted then because of your reaction to it or because maybe they don't follow an bodily ideal or whatever the case may be. Like, there's a lot of internal conflict that's happening here.

Speaker: 36:58

Okay, I also feel like Our homeboy, Joel, he's might be coming from like a male's perspective, where very distinctly, but again, the country is run primarily by men. The world is run primarily by men. But I, I think that no woman would step on the scene and be like, nudity equals arousal. Hey, like no woman was like, Oh, Oh, a naked man. Yeah. There

Speaker 3: 37:26

are, no, there are. Some women, they are rare, but they do exist. Okay. So what I would say is that nudity is kind of the perfect example of this offensive principle, because most people in society feel this contradiction between nudity and in your reaction to it. And whether that comes from biological interpretation of what you're seeing or from these age old cultural taboos that we've been through, there's just a lot going on there in your mental contradiction. Right? Okay. So, the state law says you can't take your morning jog in the buff because most people don't like it. But, how and when do taboos change? The answer is when people are adapted to it. Right? Homosexuality. This used to be a crime. It used to be one of the biggest taboos in the world. And certainly in America. And now it isn't. There was a normalization process that happened and it was a slow process.

Speaker: 38:25

Here's the thing. Taboos are all made up. What? That's why we have this podcast. So we can talk. Precisely.

Speaker 3: 38:32

We can't lampoon this shit. And it happens especially slowly when the people who are in charge of this country are 40 or more years older than this huge cut of the population that's more on the cutting edge. Like, you know, is the next generation. So there's the big gap there. Right. And we have to acknowledge though that. Old conservative people also live in our country too and are also a large swath of the population. And it's not just the hip and the cool next generation of youth. So it takes time for these things to kind of trickle down. You have to wait until these oldies get out. Get out? What do you mean by that?

Speaker: 39:11

Die or retire. And then all of a sudden, COVID enters the scene. They should be going faster, right?

Speaker 3: 39:19

That's one would assume. So it takes time for things to change. It's like the trickle down. So, you know, the old people die. The mid generation takes hold and then they die. And then the new generation. So it just takes a long time. Sometimes it's too long.

Speaker: 39:35

Progress is dependent on people dying. Just like, It's true! It really is! Or at least not being an octogenarian president. I think we can span the aisle and we can all agree that maybe let's do somebody, let's do a young whippersnapper. Yeah. Maybe somebody who's 55. I mean, I voted

Speaker 3: 39:55

for Buttigieg in the, uh, primaries, so.

Speaker: 39:58

Whoa! Laura's dropping some bombs. What? Wait, you voted as a, as a Democrat in the primary? Yep, I did. Wow, normally, I think, here's the thing, here's Rachel's I think that you should vote for the opposing party's primary candidate. I've always thought that too. Yeah. Yeah, so we can like maybe have people who are rational. Yeah! No, totally. I completely agree. I've always thought that same thing. Oh yeah, we could have two candidates who appeal to the most people possible.

Speaker 3: 40:31

Yep. Oh, that'd be a shit show. Ah, what a terrible, terrible idea. Show of democracy there. Anyways,

Speaker: 40:38

you know, we're a law firm and we're also a public policy Election consultants.

Speaker 3: 40:43

Point is it does change. It just takes a long ass time when you've got an octogenarian in an office and we've just got an uphill battle going with these things and both ways in the snow. Yeah, precisely. Just like old people. I think these laws were made in the books for a lot of reasons. I think there's, you know, American prudishness. About anything sexual, while at the same time we're over sexualizing anything we can get their hands on. And Of course. This is another thing that I thought of that was more like speculation on my part, but I'm standing behind it. It's a lot easier to prove that someone was purposefully pointing their dick at you, or their child, if they have to pull it out to do it. Heh heh heh.

Speaker: 41:27

Okay, fair. That, that's totally fair. I was just like, oh my dick was just existing here. Yeah! Yeah! As opposed to like, oh, let me unzip and like, take it out. Yeah, everybody else is wearing pants, but I'm not gonna wear pants because I want you to see.

Speaker 3: 41:42

Precisely. And I want a clear path to have someone arrested for exposing themselves to a child. And I guess, maybe, if that means we all have to cover up, maybe I'm for it? For the children! We

Speaker: 41:58

have to think of the children. Don't fool the children. But also, I feel like children, they would be okay with the tits out, cause they're like, it's an all you can eat buffet out here. So maybe just keep your penis Yeah.

Speaker 3: 42:13

Yeah, it's always about the dick. Keep the dick covered. Free the tatas. Bind the dick. Bind the dick. Nobody wants it. That, BDSM? Anyone? Going back to the Cock and ball torture. I'm all for it. Right back to Yes! Oh god, they might like it. No! Yes. No cock and ball torture. No CD2 for you. Please do not walk in

Speaker: 42:32

front of a child with your penis in a cage. Just keep your penis where it belongs. Tucked between your legs, Hannibal Lector style. Here we go. We're referencing all of our previous episodes today.

Speaker 3: 42:46

You know, might as well. So that's when we know we've wrapped up the research section. This is good dive into a very deep taboo and the very ancient roots of it and make us all think about what it means and, and how we can change it. And I think that comes down to just changing cultural mores. Right. And, um, So the question at the end is, why is my naked body a crime? All of the things, all of the things back to, to ancient taboos, to the, the new world and how we saw savages and the rise of more morals and values of a Victorian era down to, uh, Our own discomfort with our nudity and other people's nudity. There is no one answer. It's a blend of all of those things.

Speaker: 43:42

Yes, definitely. And I think my takeaway as somebody who is listening to the research, I didn't do the research, but I heard all about it. And from the highest perspective is that our naked bodies are taboo because. They are literally shirking all the other components of being a modern day human, right? So we're literally saying, get this out of here, this doesn't matter, dah, dah, dah. We're stripping away all the context clues, all of the pieces we're using to make inferences and to make judgments. And we're just saying, here I am. Yeah, and, and, like, the discomfort might actually come from that we don't know how to process that. We don't know how to make sense of it because we're missing all the pieces that we would normally use to make those inferences. And I, I think, you know, that might be a high and mighty, like, complex interpretation of all this. It might just be as simple as, like, I'm not used to seeing boobies and genitals are gross. Ewwww. But at the same time, I feel like that's, like, happening on a surface level. Because humans love to categorize. That's what we do, is we take things and we put them into buckets. You know, threat, non threat. This person is like me. It's a shortcut for our brain. Yeah. And when you take all that away, you have an enigma. We're uncomfortable. Yeah. Things that we can't process make us uncomfortable. So could that be why seeing a naked person in public is such a taboo?

Speaker 3: 45:13

I think so. I think that it's a multi layered thing, and I don't think that's too high and mighty. I think that is a good conclusion to come to. I think we nailed it. All right. So that's it. That's the end. Do you have experience with nudist colonies or being nude? Do you have opinions that differ from ours? Let us know. Check us out on the socials. Tic Tac. We're on Tic Tac. Tic Tac. Tap, TikTok, we're also on Facebook. Or you can shoot us an email route@impolitesocietypodcast.com. Because if you've got friends like you that don't want to watch the latest reality television that are interested in world history, sociology, anthropology, all these deep dive conversations, you get us. You know what it's like to think these hard questions, these weird questions And you know the people in your life that would enjoy that as well.

rachel_1_07-18-2024_213036: 46:09

All right. Thank you for listening and don't forget, stay curious and keep marching to the beat of your own drum.