Assisted Suicide: How to Legally Kill Yourself

Exploring the Complexities and Ethics of Medically Assisted Death

In this  episode of Impolite Society, Rachel and Laura delve into the controversial topic of medically assisted death, also known as assisted suicide or euthanasia. Zoraya ter Beek, a 28-year-old in the Netherlands who has chosen medically assisted death due to her mental health struggles, is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the murky ethics of assisted suicide. 

We'll explore the history, legality, and ethical debates surrounding medically assisted death across the United States, Canada, and the Netherlands. Listeners will gain insights into the different methods, legal requirements, and the socioeconomic disparities impacting access to euthanasia- all while trying keeping this dark topic light hearted. With our characteristic bluntness, we'll discuss who gets to die with 'dignity,' the socioeconomic disparities at play, and how language shapes our perceptions of this final frontier. Buckle in for a messy and unapologetic ride through the moral quagmire of choosing your own end. 

Transcript

  📍   Meet Zariah Terbeek. She is a 28 year old who lives in the Netherlands with her loving boyfriend and two cats, and she is scheduled to die.    Zariah is just the latest in a string of controversial cases around a medical assisted death. She has decided to end it all, not because she is facing a terminal illness, but due to her mental health struggles.  Medical assistance in death, assisted suicide, euthanasia, no matter what you call it, the topic brings controversy. Today we'll be covering the history of modern medical assisted death, how it works, and some of the ethical debates around the topic. So buckle in for a light hearted, breezy time today on Impolite Society.

   📍  Oh, hey, I didn't see you there. , do you wanna come along with us and learn about some taboos? I'm Rachel,

And I'm Lara.

and together we are in polite society.

Make your final arrangements, say your last farewells. Because today, we are talking about death. But, before your bummer index goes off the charts, This is a positive death. These are the deaths of people who really, really want to die. For example, that 28 year old who we talked about 

 don't find that very comforting to be honest. 

  We are talking about assisted suicide,  aka medically assisted death. Now, this has been a On our list of taboo topics to talk about for a long time. So long, that in fact, when I first wrote it, I wrote it down as, Assisted Suicide. Now, while doing the research for it, to record it now, What, like five years later?   I have learned that that is no longer the favorite term. Now it's medically assisted death or medical assistance in death. Or if you're going to be creating a bill that you're trying to get passed in a legislature, you might call it  death with dignity  semantics. You got to love how powerful language is. I mean, that's why we're making podcasts. Language, man, it's beautiful.

The power of language And what I find is that when something actually makes no sense and is,  I don't know, wrong, society gets really creative with their wordplay. They do a lot of little switcheroos. We've rebranded over and over and over again. I think this is a classic example.

so Laura, you're coming in hot here

I am.

on the topic. So I want to ask you, what is your general understanding of medically assisted death?

Okay. So I'm not incredibly well versed, but I'm definitely familiar with the concept. I know it has gained a lot of traction in the last few years. , a lot of people talking about it within the U S and abroad and about how the legislation is kind of getting more and more, I don't know if extreme is the word to use, but.

more and more different than what it was originally. There, I think that's great. More permissive than it was in years past. And my first introduction to the concept was Dr. Kevorkian, uh, Dr. Death himself. And I was pretty young when that whole thing happened. So I can't say that I grasped the nuance of the situation at the time.

But in general, I don't have a lot of positive associations with this topic. So buckle in. 

 Oh, I'm ready. And, of the many things that medical assistance in death is, it is, of course,  controversial. But, at risk of pulling a Stuff You Should Know where we do a whole episode without specifically defining the topic, Laura, in a concrete one sentence, what is medical assisted death?

It's when a doctor  helps you kill yourself.

And bingo! And that is what I knew about it when I started this research. , but there were still a lot of questions left to be answered, right? Like, how? When? What medicine?

Who is the one act Why? That's a big one, right? Who's the one actually flipping the switch and you would think that with this newer more PR friendly name

things might be a little bit clearer because hello medically assisted death at least we know who's Assisting in the death.

We know it is somebody who does the medical

Doctor Death. 

Doctor death which to be fair. He did not come up in any of my research today. 

Yeah, I bet. It's a PR nightmare. He's not coming up. 

I'm only transjacently familiar with that whole  shenanigans.  Transjacently. That's a throwback. I can't remember to what. Just me having a good old case of George Bush mouth.  So the act itself can actually vary. Let me walk you through  couple different ways medical professionals may help you  reach your own ending.

I mean, they don't just take you to a gun shop? Because I always thought that was the easiest way. No fuss. No muss.  All the mess. But it's just, that's the tried and true classic, right? Hehehe.

bring into the process, right?  We are going to get into that when we discuss a little bit more of the ethical concerns around this practice. So, outside of the gunshot, what you will see legalized the most is medical assistance in death.

And this is typically reserved for patients who are suffering from an intense and terminal disease. At this point, doctor will probably have prescribed a lethal medication. And it's up to the patient to then complete the task. Whenever and wherever they feel like they've had enough. And this really puts the patient in charge and lets them decide when it's their time. 

This is the most responsible and the thing that makes the most sense. This is somebody who's definitely going to die. You assist them in what they wanted already. You put it in their hands. I mean, the freaking cyanide capsule, right? That undercover Government agencies keeping their teeth, like, that just seems quick and easy.

So you're gonna put this in the hands of the person who's making the decision, and then just wash your hands of it. You don't have to be involved. You've given them the tool, you've given them the gun, the, the very less messy version of the gun, and let them do their own thing. This makes the most sense to me.

And it might calm your anxious soul to know that this is the most common, right?

Then this is what is legal in the U. S. 

We'll get into that a little bit more in a second. But if you don't just want to wash your hands and say, Here's your prescription. Good luck. Go die. You can be involved in medically assisted suicide.

And now I Don't know if this is quite the right term for it here either because the term suicide is not popular I mean, it's not a term a lot of people like but that is especially true of those who are in 

The palliative care industry

Yeah, I bet it's not. They don't like that S word. Suicide. I bet they don't like the other word either. The other S word. Semantics. 100%.

is still kind of the same.

Um, but it's a little  different here because this situation is probably what you have more in mind when you think of this. At least, that's what I think.  This is the situation that I pictured. Somebody is sick in a hospital, they are not doing well, and they just, they don't want to function anymore.

So they call their physician, or the doctor, or whoever provides this kind of care, and they say,  please, put me out of my misery. And then the doc shows up with the meds, the patient completes the process on their own accord, under the doctor's supervision and care. So, the doctor being present there can range from Just being there to make sure that they're still consenting and they bring the medicine with them. And it can get as much involved as the doctor administering the sedative. And then before the person falls asleep, they have to actually give themselves the fatal medicine. As anybody who has experienced a pet euthanasia knows, it's a two step process.

That's exactly what I thought of. You know, same thing. You do the first and then the second. And then also, this is also the thing that Dr. Kevorkian rigged up, was a machine that basically, you know, they could press the button to administer the final drug, so he could step off. 

That is new information to me, and I didn't know that he was the father of this method. But that kind of makes sense based on what I do know about his situation. So even this guy, Dr.

Death, was not as extreme as it gets. Because the highest level Of all of this is euthanasia. And that is a loaded word, right? This is when the doctor is in total control.   They are the ones administering all elements of the medicine that will end your life.  At your own request, either given at the time that they fulfill it or as directed by you at an earlier date. This is of course the most controversial of all options and it's not legal anywhere in the U S. 

Yeah, because the word euthanasia is euthanized, and that's what we do to pets, where they are not at all in control, and our owners decide what is done with them. Yeah. Yeah. 

see some parallels to that coming up, but the main difference of all of these,  is all about control of the patient,  who's going to do the act itself and who's involved in the process. So if this all sounds great and fucking fantastic to you,  I'll say good for you. You're ready to die. How do you go about getting this to happen? How do you go about medically ending your life? 

Again, I suggest a gun store. I don't know why you have to  rely on anybody else to get it done. 

 Well, sometimes there's a waiting period, Laura. And, and rational states. I don't know about good ol Missouri.  

No, I don't think so. I think you could just walk in and 

Do I have to have a background check to get a gun?

I don't think so, no.

Mmm, God bless states rights, guys.

This 

well,

of personal

see, this is just hinting at, oh, we're going to talk about personal liberties in this one. Okay, go ahead. I'm going to, I'm holding my tongue real hard. Go 

Well, some would say this is the greatest person of liberty. 

Exactly. So let's, let's, let's hop to it. That's all 

It sounds like you're very pro killing yourself then.  We will get there guys, because first we're going to talk about processes. And that is almost as sexy as choking on the barrel of a gun.  Was that a little too dark? Apparently

people who participate in this, they tend to have a lot of gallows humor.

How could you not? 

 I've been doing this research.

I got so many fucking  There's help out there!

Oh, I can't imagine. I can't 

fine!  

You're like, you've been Googling suicide an awful lot. 

You should call. Ha 

I have to tell Bing Co Pilot, This is for a podcast!  And they were like, Great! Podcast star! But then it starts telling me about  I know, Bing! I know. Wow. Here we go. Let's get into the sexy process of killing yourself.  first and foremost, you need to be somewhere where it is legal to medically assist, kill yourself. And for the longest amount of time, Switzerland would have been your best bet. They first legalized medical assisted death in 1941.

Oh, weird. If anybody knows their history, that's right in the middle of World War II. Little, little neutral Switzerland,  surrounded on all sides by Nazi territory, but super, super neutral. 

 Funny, because I actually had a note in here regarding World War II, and I took it out because my research first said that Switzerland allowed euthanasia at that time. And I was like, that's a bold take, considering that involuntary euthanasia was happening 

just next 

door. yeah.

I was like, really Switzerland?

But no, it was medical assistance in death. Um, but still.

Yeah, if everybody's fucking dying and being put to death for what,  quote, medical or mentally unfit. Oh, we're killing all kinds of people. What does it matter if you want to die? Who cares? Whatever.

It is sus, I will say

A hundo sus.

we got our eyes on you, but outside of that, medical assistance in dying is a much more modern of a service.  Becoming legal in the United States, in Oregon in 1997. Then the Netherlands, AKA euthanasia capital of the world in 2002.

And then. 

me. Hmm. 

But then certain states in the U S in Australia actually joined in on the fun and they jumped on board. And then most recently Canada has adopted medical assistance in dying and it became effective on St. Patrick's day in 

 Interesting. Very, yeah,  very interesting. When probably depression was pretty fucking high. 

Well, that's it. That doesn't qualify you yet, but they're probably like let's get these old folks off

our socialized medical care  

No, I, I  think you really hit it, but, but also, 

That's a lot of gray area

St. Patrick's Day. Top o the mornin to ya. Have a green beer and say goodbye to this cruel world and Canada, eh? 

It's

it is  

That is an awful, 

I love it. It's just like why march 17th of all days of the year. You just were like, well, it's got to be a day might as well

Me St. Patrick's Day.

Shit on the Irish, I guess. 

They're used to it.

those poor Irish people. Um, now they're known as National Death Day in Canada.

So, if you are in one of those places, you are in luck. But if not, no fear, my melancholy listener or terminally ill listener. Because some of these places act as destinations for those who are seeking the sweet release of death. Hey,

on your tourism brochures. Come for the medically assisted suicide, stay for eternity. 

I think there's worse places you could stay for eternity than maybe like in the Swiss Alps. Like, that's kinda nice. I would sit under the Matterhorn and be like   Chill.

chill. 

 But Switzerland is one of those places that has been a safe haven for dying and allows international guests to come and make the most of the amenities at the the Dignitas facilities, which is a non profit that facilitates these  deaths.

Thanks.

Aw, a non profit! So sweet of them! Do you think they have like, late night commercials? Like the ASPCA?  In the arms of the angel! And 

Help all these unfortunate British people 

ha ha! ha!  Do you want to help them? Look at their terrible teeth! Ha ha ha ha ha ha 

It's really a mercy. It's a kindness that you're providing. No.

I mean, that's a real question though. Who really does fund Dignitas? That's a 

I'm sure there's donors. Don't

I know, who, who are these d ah, donors. I just, I want to go in. It's like my psych brain, my like, wants to go into it. I'm like, who are you people?

And if you're American, you don't even need to travel that far because states in the U S like Vermont, for one, they will allow individuals to partake in this process without any residency requirements, at least for Vermont is of 2023.  So very recent. So in the natural order of things. You would continue to live until whatever medical condition you have eventually shuts your body down. Potentially over a long and painful span of time,  and if you wanted to skip all of that suffering and just get straight to the end, how would you do it? Well, in the U. S., Oregon set the bar for how medically assisted death should operate in our country. Those suffering from a terminal illness where they're given six months or less to live qualify under the following conditions. The patient must be 18 or older.  They have the ability to make and communicate the decisions on their own. And finally, they must be able to self administer. As we said, that medical assistance in death is the only option that is legal here in the U. S. So they must be able to pop open that little orange pill bottle

Oh gosh, I hope it's not childproof. Ha, 

Yeah, imagine, you're like so weak and 

ha, ha. 

it.



 And because it is, as we were joking about, self administered, those people would need to be able to take the prescribed medicine. So nowhere, nowhere in the USA can a doctor administer the lethal medication. 

makes the most sense to me. You have to be actively dying, you have to be an adult, you have to be of sound mind and body, and you have to be the one to make the killing blow in the very literal way. This is the kind that I'm like, okay, this makes sense. This seems like a kindness 

and I think this is the most

palatable of the types of medical assistance in death. 

And that is shown in a Gallup poll that found that 72 percent of Americans support this medical aid in dying. And that is actually up a considerable amount from 2015 that it was just at 68.  So it went up like  5%. The surveys were 3 years apart. So it's continuing to rise.

So this idea of what a medical assistance in death is,  again, the more ideal version. 

It just makes sense because This is just basically the equivalent of you going to a gun store Somebody is giving you the medication and then you're gonna do it on your own time whenever you want to  it really does Speak to choice in my opinion like we're You country that is individualistic.

So it's, it's on me, and I'm like, okay, because anybody can kill themselves at any fucking time. They don't need permission from a doctor or an a lawyer or paperwork or anything. You can get it done literally anytime. So this just seems like a cleaner way to do it.

Well, there are, some would argue, benefits to the more  developed process around it, which  including your loved ones on the decision making journey. So even if they can't stop you, they can at least understand where you're coming from. It would include, 

do that on your own, but, okay, point taken.

it includes, um, multiple opinions and paperwork to make sure you're not making this decision on a whim,

right? And that you've got the thought process behind it. And this is really what you want to do.

And that's what we're going to jump into. Next, right? What is the process? Because while you're thinking that facing your mortality is bad enough, guess what it comes with? Red tape!

Can't escape it! 

good! I mean, it's better than the alternative, right? Where doctors are all doing it willy nilly, unregulated?

well, writing the script, right? Like, oh yeah,

you can kill yourself any time. Here's your, here's your magic pill

to get out. 

yeah, We want some red tape involved. I'm okay with it.

But, what about gun stores? Do they need red tape, Laura? Um, um,

Not in the Missouri anyway. It all depends. That's what I'm saying. If you want to do it, it's real easy to get it done. You don't need any red tape if you really don't want to go 

why spend any money? Just jump into traffic, right?

Well, don't,  how is it different. 

How is it different? Because when somebody hits you with a car, that's on them for the rest of their life. You think that gun store owner gives a shit? He's sold so many fucking guns, he doesn't know what happens to that gun 

 But there's still somebody who's going to find you, 

There's still

people who are going to have to scrape your brain matter off

things.  but That's a topic for another day. 

 So despite your date with the Grim Reaper, you must consult with multiple doctors. You gotta get a second opinion.

You gotta get a third opinion. You also have to make multiple oral and written requests with a waiting period between them. And yes, you also need other people to witness that you personally have made these requests. And you know, it just wouldn't be America if it didn't require legal paperwork to be completed as well. So, once the physician approves your request, then they, they then prescribe the lethal medication, often a combo of sedatives. I could list what they are, but that's boring radio. Nobody wants to hear that.

It's just Just jokes that slow you down, and then you die. And then the rest is up to you, the patient, right? So you can fill the script. Again, I didn't quite look up how you do that. It would be weird to get it out of the Walgreens. That's all I'm saying. And then you take it whenever you feel the time is right,  if at all, right? You can get it filled, and there's no obligation to take it.

It's like your backup plan Yeah,

 But if you do, once you've taken the concoction, you fall unconscious within probably about half an hour.

And then Jeff often follows within several hours.  Dealie, you probably have somebody else there with you. Um, loved ones spitting you their last spit. Farewells all that stuff, but death the self can take as much as a few days You know if you're a fighter, so I'm thinking that's probably more the people who are already in the hospital You know they might have other  assistants who knows

that seems like a really long time a few days after you take some freaking 

but you're unconscious 

Yeah. Well, I mean you don't know what happens in that time, but okay 

Nobody does there's

only one way to find 

out ask your 

let's go. Great adventure.  Rachel and I live. No, that's dark.

that's very boring radio.  It's like, okay, we're taking it, dead air.  God, that's like a Black Mirror episode where

people are like live streaming. 

That's what this feels like. That's what I'm telling you. All this feels like a black mirror, which is why I had to stop watching Black Mirror. Got under my skin too much. Couldn't do it.

 So,  One of the things that's interesting about after your black mirror death , your death certificate will list the underlying condition that you had as your cause of death, even though it biologically wasn't. And that struck me as just one of the quirks of being human, going back to the semantics part of this whole discussion.

Absolutely. Or a quirk of people not wanting to admit what actually ended a life. They want to put a veneer on it. They don't want to say it was suicide. They want to say it was cancer. Or whatever. It's just, mmm, dishonesty it feels like to me.

Well, in the U. S. specifically, because in other places, such as the Netherlands, it is listed as euthanasia.

I think that that's at least more honest. I'll give it that.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, granted, some of the people would maybe not have done the euthanasia if it wasn't for the terminal illness, but some would. Some are really, really ready for it.

And they have a little bit more room to participate in it under some of the processes in other countries, including Canada, whose new approach follows the U.

S. with a few different processes. Variations, right? So it's the same when it comes to age, mental soundness, those kind of things. But there's two major differences. The first is to qualify for death, you must have a grievous and irremediable medical condition. 

Now, if you're very astute, you might notice what word is left out.

Terminal!

Terminal, right? In fact, a reasonably foreseeable natural death, that language was struck from the proposed legislation.

This means more people can opt in to opting out. This includes folks with serious illness, disease, or disabilities that cannot be reversed.

And the person is experiencing the unbearable physical and mental suffering due to this condition.



This can include chronic pain, neurodegenerative illnesses,  like ALS and Huntington's disease, advanced neurological disorders like MS and Parkinson's, which are not fatal, right? They just make living a lot

Very hard. Yeah.

end stage organ failure, which I would imagine is terminal. But, Canada is going even a step further and is dipping its toes into the murky waters of medical assistance in dying for severe mental health conditions. So if you just cannot stand living in your own head, you will have to wait until 2027 for this sweet, sweet release. Again, on fucking St. Patrick's Day of all days. Canada, why?

I have a lot of thoughts on this one. I know we're going to get to it later in terms of like, you know, the, the ethical implications. I'm going to try to hold my tongue for now, but what I am going to say is I think this is probably very distinctly related to the socialized medicine. .

 You know, if you as a government can get rid of this wide swath of population that has chronic disease, that is going to be a drain on your medical system for the next 20 years, and you have people who want to opt out. Yeah, let's give it to them. 

Yeah, I can see where that might be considered a win win versus like a dystopian we're going to

perform 

Win win. Yeah.  That's what I mean. I don't mean dystopian like we're gonna force them, but like they're like, you know, what? Yeah. Okay. Okay

I mean, but to be fair, all the monies that we're throwing into insurance is also covering people who have that through private insurance, right? I

And they're just sucking their money out and if they want to live, you know They got a fucking keep forking out which is equally as dystopian and depressing 

 The other major difference is that doctors are allowed to give you the final dose, meaning it's not necessarily up to you. This gives you some ability to plan ahead though, right? And we'll cover that a little bit more when we talk about our next country, which is the Netherlands. Easily the assisted suicide capital of the world. They have the most accepting legislation around medical assistance in death  and legal euthanasia.  The Dutch take what the Canadians have landed on, and they take it a bit further. Which is really more like the Canadians walked back what the Dutch already had on the books for decades, but  fuck timelines!  I'm god of this podcast episode.  Okay, so essentially, the Dutch, which is what you call Netherlanders, right? Fun fact for people who aren't down with the Europeans. The Dutch, they open up the application to anyone who is experiencing  unbearable suffering with no prospects of improvement. They are, in fact, one of the few places allowing medical assistance in dying for mental health conditions and dementia. Thank you to As well  as the general sense of life being complete. 

the fuck does that mean?

You're old and you're done. You're just like, I'm

Just people are just like, I'm not sick. I'm just, I'm just, I'm, I'm done. I'm tired of, tired of, 

up, A town down. 

Jesus Christ.

Every old person I've known I feel like has been like, yeah, I'm ready. 

Yeah, well they're waiting for the moment they're waiting for it to go they're not like Again, they're not headed out to the gun store.  Because when it comes to religion, I think that this would probably still fall under the big S word, 

uh, sin 

the religious people are super fuddy duddies about it.

Oh yeah, fuddy duddies. I

they allow the euthanasia and not just a medical assistance in death. So consent is not necessarily needed  in the moment you are  Put down.  In lack of a

mean, what? I mean, there's another word for this, and it's suicide. It's, it's, it's called murder. 

I was gonna say, this might sound like murder to you, but  rest assured, that there is a difference. And that difference is advance directives. So this means that you include in a very  clearly, I'm sure legally reviewed document, that specifies the circumstances in which you would prefer to no longer be alive. So at some point, Rational You sits down,  tippy types out a document saying like, if I can't wipe my ass, if I can't eat solid food, and if I don't remember my loved ones when they enter a room, that means I no longer want to be alive. And,

version of you, that hasn't yet experienced that that says that you don't want to live anymore. That's different when you've actually experienced it. You might have a different feeling about it. 

and that's where it gets murky, especially when it comes to dementia. But the positive here is for folks who are facing terminal illnesses. That means you don't have to end it before things get worse.  In the U. S. and Canada, you have to physically be well enough to administer the medication. But that means you're missing out on who knows how much more lucid time before you really can't function anymore. So while in the Netherlands, you can enjoy every moment, squeeze every moment you can out of your remaining time, and you don't have to language after you deteriorate beyond a point that you're comfortable with.  But

as you were mentioning, it also has a dark side, right?  These directives are commonly used in patients suffering from Alzheimer's or dementia, which get, trust me, I understand the impulse because it is not pleasant to watch this play out with a

no. It's. 

So those of us who are making these. Plans now are typically baby boomers. They are typically just gone through this with their parents,

and so it's fresh in their brain. So while I get the impulse, I will say it does not always play out as anticipated.

Because as you said, they're making it from one state of mind. They can't know how they feel in that moment. Especially if  they're a different person in that moment as well.

And  this has resulted in doctors performing euthanasia on patients who are actively resisting  to the point where they are being restrained by family and medical staff in order for the doctor to complete the advanced directive That the individual laid out. 

What country is this again? This is the Netherlands?

this is the Netherlands.

And this is the true story? at the heart of the first ever prosecution around euthanasia in the Netherlands. 

Fucking hell, if I were on that court, straight to jail. straight to jail. What the 

fuck is this doctor 

in, who do you put in jail? The doctor, the family, the staff that

The doctor! 

I mean, but they were all there doing it. I mean, it's,  it's, It's crazy, but the doctor does carry the bulk of the responsibility because in the Netherlands, nobody has an absolute right to euthanasia, They don't have an absolute right to receive it and doctors don't have an absolute duty to perform it, which means that doctors should be able to use their better senses and understand when it's time to pull out if what is happening doesn't feel like it's in the patient's best interest.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, because it feels like, okay, you have this advanced directive, but if somebody is fucking fighting you because they want to live, you should obviously step back, you fucking psychopath! 

That's nuts! 

 Put it on the record. Don't, don't kill me for dementia. Even though it's probably upsetting to you, my children. But I watched my grandfather play with a deck of cards and the, just fucking fascination that that man had flipping through the cards of a deck.

I was like, I would, I

would 

surprise!

I would love to have that again. It was like watching my toddler play with stuff. And I was like, you know what? There's worse things. Let me have that childlike wonder again,

guys. I know it's not all it's not all peaches and roses,  but teach the road and I'm saying don't call the quits and shit because I'm probably having a fucking trip man.

It's probably great.

You're just on a shroom trip. 

So another major spin in the Netherlands is allowing people to pull the plug on life because of mental health.  And this is the case of the woman we covered in the cold open. And in Belgium, again, I'm going to talk about them interchangeably. They're separate places, but Belgium has got the same level of laws regarding assistance in death.  And this same reasoning is the, what caused a 23 year old survivor of the Brussels airport bombing to choose to end her life after living with the psychological pain The PTSD that was deemed incurable by a panel of doctors. Again, how weird we are about the words and semantics, because after she died, she is considered a victim of that terrorist attack, despite the fact that she survived it and lived for years after.

I cannot express how fucking wrong this feels to me. This is a mentally ill person  that mental illness is the reason she wants to die. Yet, she's allowed to make a legal choice like this. She's supposed to be of sound mind and body, but she's not for the very reason that she wants to be killed.

I, I cannot understand this. This. This. Doctors need to help this woman, not fucking kill her. They need, if, if the stuff that they've tried hasn't worked, I guarantee you, there is more shit to try. There is always shit to try. We talked about fucking shrooms. Give this bitch some shrooms in a room. That's a new experimental 

Yeah, just give her LSD, anything. Just really,

Yeah, because what are you gonna do? 

Right? Uh, And that was actually one of the distinctions they made when they were talking about mental health is, is the disease itself  causing the desire to kill yourself or is it the struggle of living with the disease that wants you to kill yourself?

I don't think you can make any kind of delineation in this kind of situation. At all. You cannot. You

Apparently this woman was described as frail before the fact. but yeah, again, this

mean already mentally ill before the fact? 

Yeah, This feels viscerally wrong to

me.

Um, as somebody who is watching a lot of the horrible things that are happening in the world on fucking social media. And I cannot help but think that I am. Every single person in Palestine would love to live their life after it's done and they don't all have the option to

because they're being killed.

And I'm not going to speak to the situation because I'm not anywhere educated enough to. But I just know that if you're in a life and death situation, you would love to live, right? And I'm sure in that moment, she fought to live

too! It's 

Yeah. Yeah. It's insane. 

That, that is a really hard one to wrap my head around. But apparently, life was too hard.

The doctors were like, we can't help her any further. Here we are.

Again, go get a fucking gun.

Well, not in Europe. I, that, it's different over there.

Okay, fine! Get a car and a frickin garage gonna Sorry. 

say, we're just tiptoe into ethics around this topic, but I think we dove headfirst into

we did, we did.

Because the Netherlands does take this very

seriously, right?

They want to make sure, they want to ensure that this is being used appropriately. And to do that, they have these review boards called the Regional Euthanasia Review Committee that reviews the cases. Granted, like, they're not approving them. They're reviewing them in hindsight. I think, I don't know. It was Netherlands websites.

It's all Google translated.  But they're doing this to ensure that everything is above board. So I think the goal is to deter doctors from making bad decisions, because if you are found to not have met the criteria, AKA that doctor performing euthanasia on a person who is actively resisting, it goes to the public prosecutor.

Like you are facing jail time. This is not just like a  slap on the wrist or you'll lose your, lose your license. You are a murderer. 

it should be. But interestingly that the review happens after the fact, as in after your key witness is in the fucking ground.

Well, as if you're willing participant in it, for the most part, I feel like that's probably hard for folks to combat. But, if the due diligence isn't done, or if a family member is rattling the cage, maybe that's where the, the rubber meets the road.

And this board, which there are quite a few of, right, a handful of, that cover different districts within the Netherlands It is made up of three individuals, which I thought this was interesting.

One is a physician, for very obvious reasons. It also includes a lawyer, a. k. a. legal expert. And also, that's a big no duh. Like, those are, like, the two primary people you'd probably imagine on these kind of things. But the third member is who I found the most interesting, because these committees all include one ethicist. So. That is actually really good news for everybody who majored in ethics in college because there is at least five jobs out there for you.   And even having one of them on the committee speaks to the difficulty that is making these calls.

I mean, I've put a pet to sleep. I've put two pets to sleep. I know it's not the same. They're pets. They're not humans. It's a really freaking hard decision. And.  I wish I had an ethicist there at the time to tell me what to do. So,  that's, I guess that's good. I mean, what kind of ethics do they study?

There's all different kinds, as I've learned from the good place. There's a lot of different, uh, ways that one could take things, but I mean, I guess still that's good, right?

Well, and I think what you're saying speaks to the complication of the process

itself, right? Where if we struggle  with the decision to end the life of a, a critter that had a max lifespan of 20 years anyway, what do you do with the person? It's, it's even that much harder. And while Laura and I, we are not ethicists with advanced degrees, we are just the common lay person with advanced degrees. Maybe semi rational heads on our shoulders. I know we would love to say rational, but in reality

Semi. Yeah.

Let's have a semi on there. Um, but we do have a love for philosophizing So let's get into the ethics of this topic or, you know, what are some of the ethical discussions around it?

The good, the bad, and the ugly truth. So, anyone who's known anyone to die of degenerative diseases can see the good side of this process. At its best, medical assistance in death allows patients to bypass months of potential pain and emotional struggle as their body deteriorates.   But it does challenge our notion of sanctity of life over quality, which again, if you've watched a loved one within a terminal illness, or just maybe generally at the end of their life, you will know that dignity and quality can greatly diminish as you creep closer to the grave.  And in those cases, having the ability to opt out provides that ultimate version of body autonomy, letting us  mighty humans wave the proverbial middle finger at nature and biology and say, we might be at your mercy in the end, but we're still calling the shots.  Professionals have seen this urge grow over the decades as well, and they only expect it to continue  as we move as a society more towards body autonomy, individualism, and that's even showing itself and patients are becoming less accepting of doctors denying their request to die. They're saying, it's my body, you can't tell me I can't end it.

Exactly. And that's, that's what it comes down to in my view is like, in the end, we all have this choice. We do not need the permission of a doctor and a board and an ethicist and all these kinds of things. Like in the end, you 100 percent have the ability to do this. Any fucking time.

I have the ability right now to go out and do this. So do you Rachel? So does every person pretty much On the planet you have the ability to kill yourself. This is what I find so confounding about this whole process. It's just like People kill themselves every day Why do you need like legal permission and a doctor to help you this all just?

Muddles my brain. I don't understand

So one of the key comparisons that was made was of a young woman who chose to end her life by jumping in front of a train, Usually folks who commit suicide the traditional ways, they do it on their own. They do it hastily, not, not even hastily, but it's a solo decision and it's done where it's going to impact others.

You can't choose to end your life without creating. Some kind of negative impact, whether that's the person who unintentionally aids you in killing yourself, like the train driver, the, the person who finds your body, whether that's family or somebody else, or the people who you've left behind who are forever filled with questions.

You can still discuss that with them beforehand and you don't have to throw yourself in front of the 

But they'll get you committed at that point, right? You know, You

if you

have a sane, rational conversation about it, I don't think.

Uh, I, I, I don't know if it's gonna be

as you're a terminally ill individual, do you think they're going to be like, you know, you need to go to the local mental health facility? No,

be stuck in a hospital and not have the options to do it.   

 What had happened was, there was a family who very publicly had their child  commit suicide through, uh, medical assistance in death. And they actually were, had a family, that family of that girl who chose to end her life by stepping in front of a train.

They reached out to them and they're saying, Oh, we wish we were in your position because then we could at least have been a part of the decision making. We could have at least, you know, had those conversations at the end. Because the person, when you do act in that way, you're kind of  For leaving everybody else behind and acting in your own volition at that

Well,  perhaps if she would have involved her family in that moment, a perfectly healthy individual who is having mental illness struggles, their family would have  reasonably committed her. Like I said, because That is not, it's not your natural end. You're not speeding up your natural end. You're making a hasty decision.

They would have gotten her help. 

But it's not always hasty, and we'll get to that, because we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves

here. Like, when we talk about it,  at its best, a medical assistance in death can be kind of beautiful, right? So, one of the highly praised stories, most public stories, is charlie and Francie Emmerich. So this is a couple, they had been married for 66 years when they found out they were both facing terminal illnesses. Because medical assisted death was an option for them in their home state of Oregon, the couple were not only able to choose when they would embark on the final great adventure, but where they would be able to do it.

So on April 20th, 2017, almost seven years to the date that we were recording this episode, um, the pair held hands on the bed that they'd shared in their home as they took those final medications and eventually their final breaths. So this decision has spared these two the physical pain of dying as well as the pain of watching  their beloved life partner die or having to continue on without them. And the couple was 87 and 88 at the time of their death. So this truly is the best case scenario and shows how this practice can be compassionate, loving, and even empowering for those who are facing the unfaceable. 

And I can see why this is, quote, the poster child story. I can see the draw in this. But also, again, Why do we have to make this so official and respected? They didn't have to do  A doctor and a board and all this kinds of stuff or brains everywhere a running car and a closed garage It avoids a lot of this red tape the money exchanging hands questionably out legalities going on potential future fallout from these kinds of Legislations.

I don't I don't know. I just think of it as these kind of people having You  The lack of guts to do it themselves. Like they need somebody to like,  Permiss them to do it. And it's like, it's your life. You get to decide. I don't, I don't understand it. 

Socially 

way. No, it's a softer way of doing it, right? You're not pulling the trigger. You're

not 

you can, what's wrong with sitting in a car in a garage and holding the hands of your loved one. Carbon dioxide poisoning is like falling asleep.

But the people who are choosing to do this, they're typically with family members who are continuing to live on. Like when we talk about our pets  who we have euthanized.  The situation in which they are dying is a lot more in line with what I would prefer for myself than the staying in a hospital bed or a nursing home and being found, right? You're surrounded by loved ones. They're there with you. And one of the cases they talk about, the whole family was over drinking, having a fucking party.

We're counting memories. It was raucous. It was like, And so like, it, again, it gives you that control to have that moment as opposed to maybe being alone in your car. Or,

I mean, also, I mean, how hard is it to get ahold of cyanide caplets? I don't know! I've never tried! 

but then you might be implicating your family in this thing. It just, it provides a framework for, this ugly thing, right? 

Death is ugly no matter what. You're never gonna give it a veneer of beautiful and, amazing. You're fucking dying. I don't know. This is like old school and polite society, we're 

but I know, yeah, and I'm 

not for it.

but I'm, I'm gonna say like if I was gonna choose to die, if I was faced with death, and I had to choose how I was gonna do it, I would prefer to be surrounded by my loved ones than be in a car or a gun in my mouth by myself.

Okay, then, then you're going to have to wait. 

But this is giving you the opportunity to not suffer.

So are

you saying not having the guts? to do it. I think that that's kind of insensitive because it's not about guts. It's about choosing how you want to exit this life.  And I don't think it's fair to call them cowards when you're facing a terminal illness, because they don't blow their brains out or slip their wrists in a bathtub 

No, that's the part that I'm okay with. The one that like, you give you the prescription and then you let it go. You're on your own time. It's this other shit with the mental illness and the I don't want to do it and all this kind of stuff. But that's when it gets really fucking sick.

Well, it is complicated, and that complication is also felt by the ones who are carrying out the act itself. Some of the folks who are the most critical of this process are those who are closest to it, and that includes the physicians,  for one, , it obviously stands in direct violation to the Hippocratic Oath, which, if you're going to, off the top of your head. What's the one line that all of us lay people know about the Hippocratic Oath?

Do no harm!

Correct. And you might be able to argue that, Oh, well, there might be more harm to them living in pain longer. But apparently, as I learned in this research, the oath quite literally states, I will neither give a deadly drug to anyone if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect.

That seems a direct opposition. I mean,

all of that, carrying out assisted suicide or euthanasia comes at a personal and emotional cost. According to the survey of  U. S. Oncologist Who had helped a patient pass on nearly a quarter regretted their actions and another 16 percent reported that the emotional burden of providing this service adversely affected their ability to practice medicine. AKA  it has led to this feeling of burnout where doctors are turning away from providing this service, or.  Abandoning medicine entirely. 

we talked about in our pets episode previously about the vets who are burnt out from euthanizing animals. I mean, shit!  And those are pets! Animals! Comparatively to human beings? Oof. Mmm, 

like, are we trading one form of human suffering for another? Right. So how can we grapple with playing God with our fellow man? And I personally do not think the decent among us are designed for it. Right. If you have a conscious, if you have a heart, this is not going to jive with your  Being.  Yeah. That's honestly just one of the arguments against it. The other major one that you see over and over again, that's of course not tied to religion, the fuddy duddies, killin the death parties that is the slippery slope.  Now, I might be a communications major, guys, but I am NOT your run of the mill communications major.   I went to what is called a liberal arts college, which means I was indoctrinated in the left wing agenda. No, just kidding. Liberal meant something different, I guess, back in the day, but it still offends people, apparently. If you say liberal arts, they just

Pizzagate!

Pizzagate!  Um, but any hoodle, as a liberal arts student,  I did not just learn how to write a press release. In fact, I never learned how to write a press release in college, which would've actually been helpful actually if I, when I think back, the most helpful thing that I learned in college was how to use Audacity A, led me to my career as a podcaster.

Thank you.

TSU, 

completely non monetized career as a podcaster. 

up a lot of my time and forces me to learn about really weird things sometimes. But I love it! Give me more! But if you want to contribute monetarily, you can, I don't know, we don't have any way 

us at Implied Society.

that doesn't exist. Don't send anything to Implied Society. Keep your money. We want you to be financially well, so

that you don't feel like 

Ha ha ha. Bringing it back. 

 So as a communication major who studied com theory, I had a professor who was very, very adamant that the slippery slope is not a legitimate argument and it cannot be used as a rhetorical device. And  I don't remember all the reasoning. College was a long time ago. But man, sometimes it seems like the evidence for the slippery slope argument. It's kind of compelling.

Damn straight it is. Fuck that professor. This is one fucking liberal arts professor. It is compelling because we're human beings and we know that things often follow a logical course because we've seen it happen. So I've heard you say that before that it's not a valid argument and I call BS. So continue about why 



So, the worry that with this common acceptance of medical assistance in dying is that it will expand to include more non terminal diseases, providing kind of like this general opt out of existence, or that regulations may dilute so that people will start to abuse this power on their quote unquote loved ones.  And if we've learned anything from the Netherlands, it is, in fact, that once an established, accepted option,  medical assistance in dying does become more popular. In the first year it was legal,  around 1, 800 individuals chose to end their lives through euthanasia. Do you want to take a little guesstimation at what it was in 2023? 

I need 1, 800, let's double it. So what is that? 3, 600?

You need, you would need to double it again because the estimation is around 9, 000 individuals have participated in it, representing around 5 percent of all deaths in the country.

Jesus! 

 Yeah, it's a lot. And when it comes to euthanasia or any kind of suicide,  things get interesting, right? Suicide is strange. It seems to happen in clusters.  And that applies for those on the medical level as well. So these deaths seem to cluster in specific municipalities.  The three municipalities with the highest incidence had a ratio 25 times higher than the three municipalities with the lowest incident. So there's just like a few spots where the majority of these  medically assisted deaths are happening.

 Not only is medical assistance and death more common, but the Dutch have also expanded who is eligible, including children. So previous,

Ah, 

previously infants under one and children over 12 were allowed to end their lives or at least allowed their parents to end their lives for them.  That already seems like a lot, right?  Um, but now in  Netherlands, any human of any age can be euthanized. 

Jesus  Christ. So before it was under 1 and over 12. That was okay. But then they were like, not enough,  anyone,  any children. I can decide 

I'm sure this makes a very small percentage, but,

in like, really heartbreaking cases. 

What the actual fuck? That is my gut reaction to that. I mean, listen, I underst  Ooooooh. I Mmmmmmmmm.

at euthanasia for, like, the infants under one, it was usually babies who, like, were not compatible with life, or, like, were suffering.

Yeah, and I imagine that that happens real fucking fast. It happens real fucking fast. Just hang on for like two days, it's gonna 

is it worth that? Like, individual suffering for two days? 

it would for me to be the one the parent that terminated their child's life?  Yes! 

like, the fact that you just terminated it, it did read a lot like abortion after the baby has been born.

But, again, we cannot smooth over nature and pregnancy, birth, does not exist outside. Of the ugliness, that is the natural order of things, . 

We all have to suffer. It's the end. It's Buddhism. It's the fucking nature of the universe. We all suffer. 

But I

Sorry, I'm so 

the idea, and I'm not even for this, but 

ha ha! 

like, devil's avocado. Um,  I, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,.  That's just one component, right? Because not

You can't even, you can't even defend that one. You're like, 

I'm just saying like, suffering at any level, if they're gonna die anyway, cut to the chase, guys.

Who has time to sit in a hospital for two days? Not I.  Not I. Um, so

Fucking liar. Fucking 

before the qualifying conditions they have been expanded to include mental health, leading to that story of a physically healthy 28 year old choosing to die. Um, so either you are really that tormented and that sick in the head, or you are that annoying, because because.

There is literally only so much whining that any individual can take. So at some point you're probably just like, yeah, okay, fucking kill yourself then. I'm, what do you want me to do about it? I can't fix it for you. And I feel like it's that exasperation is what is leading to a lot of these mental health deaths. So they do make up a very small percentage of deaths that are a part of this, right? So I think in 2023, 2022, it was like 130.  Individuals out of like, what, 9, 000? And those are the ones who just applied for it. And that includes Elko DeCoyer, who was a 38 year old man who chose to end his life due to mental illness with the support of his family. Now, The article I found him mentioned in did not have a lot of details about his condition. So I did do a quick Google search and Hmm fun or not so fun fact Homie still has his LinkedIn up and I was able to confirm that through the pictures that are on there And so I just want to say  Please delete my LinkedIn after I die.

Please don't leave me out there open to work or whatever fucking after I'm dead. I just felt it had all this stuff on there and I'm just like, this is a dead man. That's just on LinkedIn.

If I knew I was terminating my life, I probably would have deleted my LinkedIn

A hundred percent, A hundo percent. 

Yeah, and it's like he's got 200 connections it's just out there it's not like  it's just Elko  Is that that  Of your life and your legacy.

That's what's gonna be out there. Womp 

That's what, that's 

what hit me in the heart. I was again,

Because he was a full individual, and he lived a full fucking life, and his goddamn LinkedIn is Ah!  It's 

Yeah. And then there's another case of a 33 year old woman who lobbied to die for over a decade before finally being able to call it quits in 2021 after struggling with anorexia since being a teen. Again, Her family fully supported this. Both these cases the families were like, okay, you want what's best for your child and my child at this point doesn't want to continue.

And the anorexia is interesting to call out because anorexia doesn't cause you to want to kill yourself, but the fact that she was suffering so at the extent of The anorexia, and at first you're like, oh, okay, eat a sandwich or whatever, but when you read

her story She's in and out of these involuntary psych words,  people are forcing food down her throat It does not sound like a lovely existence and it's not something you can just snap out of

so in hearing her story I was almost like okay, I kind of get it but also it's really fucked up That society put that on her,  she didn't just pop out of the room being

like, 

also then gave her permission to do it. Yeah.

yeah, it,  it is quite the task to bring your head around. And the thing about both of these stories is the families called it a blessing or, the best of many sad options for their children to take. And obviously, those who are the center of these stories, they ain't talkin But as I said before, some of the biggest critics are the ones who are the closest to it, and this includes Theo Boyer, who once served as the ethicist branch of a regional board to review cases in the Netherlands.  He said it's become too accepted that instead of a last resort, which I think most of us are comfortable with, it has spread to becoming the default

to when anybody's just like, I don't wanna do it anymore. As well as some of the doctors that he personally knew. Who have seen patients demand to end it all during cold snaps and even on the darker side, end it on the bequest of their family.

So a general practitioner in Belgium recounts a story where a man diagnosed with dementia  signed a directive saying, if I get worse, I'm I'm outtie, right, legal

speak. But the man himself didn't quite seem to be the biggest proponent of his own death. The doc described that his wife was an evangelist for her husband's demise, calling him a coward for changing his mind.

Which he did, a lot. He waffled back and forth around 20

times. Which is not somebody who seems committed to the cause. This directive.

And as a sane person, this doctor did not participate in the euthanasia of this man. Instead, it was completed by a colleague while she was out on holiday!

Jesus. 

What the fuck, man?! 

You think about the world not ending when you're on vacation, it's like somebody's world  ended.  Because she took a trip to the beach, and she has to live with that for the rest of her

Yeah. life. Oof.

Needless to say, she don't work there no more.

Yeah. I can imagine. I'd fucking come home and I want to throttle that fucking co worker. Damn, I might take that to the fucking whatever the Dutch equivalent of the Supreme Court 

yeah, that one was messed up. Messed up. And it's all murky, right? None of this is clear cut, even in the best cases.

I But dementia seems to be where the water is the darkest, because this reasoning is what caused Berna Van Baarsen, a medical ethicist, to resign from another one of those review boards due to the increased practice of people euthanizing folks who are suffering from dementia, stating, as we talked about, it's fundamentally impossible to ensure that the patient is suffering when they can't Speak to it.

They can't explain it. So you don't know what they're experiencing. And yet, because they are not what we're normally used to seeing them

as, people are going forward with these euthanasias.

Oh, God, yeah, I mean, Berna, take care of yourself. 

Oh Yeah, get out of there. 

Yeah.

Even  in the best cases, you cannot 100 percent rely on those advanced directives, because in the U. S., where it's all executed on your own will,

30 percent of those who are prescribed the pill do not take it.

It does not surprise me in the fucking slightest. I mean, yeah, people just want the option, ? They want it in their back pocket.

Yeah, or you know, once you slip into a coma, you can't, right?

But , the idea there is that there's enough hesitancy that people who originally were asking for it don't go through with it on the end.

So how can you rationalize a place where a doctor is performing it to its completion where necessarily a person might not do it to themselves?

Yeah, yeah. 

But while we can talk about the circles, and we have, this is going to be a long episode. 

This is a hard hitting, impolite society. Probably why we sat on it for five years, or however long we've been doing this shit. It was 2019.  Time flies. But, but that's all to say that  I can't answer these ethical questions.

We both can't answer them. Even people with advanced grad degrees can't, even though sometimes their actions do when they quit things.

what I can tell you is what it boils down to, which is the ugly, ugly truth about this so called dignity in death. And that is that it is quite, in fact, a luxury good. Dying, or specifically choosing how or when you die, is only for the affluent. So when you look at the members and the attendees of the Dutch Voluntary Euthanasia Society, you would be hard pressed to find somebody outside of the upper middle class in its ranks.

 White people shit. Ha Ha ha ha ha ha 

ha it is white people shit. And it's not a shocker to anybody whose eyes are open. In the slightest that being lower income provides hurdles to medical care.  That's, you

know, controversial 

ha ha ha. 

have a harder time getting medical care.  It's also found that this rings true in death as well with low income patients, less likely to receive medical assistance and dying, according to a study published in the British medical journal open.

Duh.

And this is also backed up by a study in Canada that found that patients with a lower socioeconomic status were partaking in the medical assistance and death at a 40 percent lower rate. And you might remember those three municipalities in the Netherlands with those highest rates of euthanasia. Three guesses on what else they might be leading in.

Money. Money. Money. And money.

Correct. They are also three of the most affluent municipalities. So, while it's shown and confirmed, and repeatedly confirmed, no one knows precisely why.

I mean, in my gut, yeah, we have theories. Is it the fact that folks who have lived in a social, a lower, Socio economic life, they may have less access, sure, or they maybe have known discomfort their entire life, and they know how to deal with it.

They have accepted suffering as the truth, the universal truth of the world! 

I mean, yeah, as a whole, American society, or western society,  is fighting discomfort as much as possible. We can't even go out and talk to each other anymore because it's too awkward.  But yeah, this idea that Sure, I might have a terminal illness, but that's just the icing on the cake of a long line of injustices that life has put on me, you know?

And so they, they just deal with it. You keep on living. And even what I said when we were talking about that woman who survived the terrorist attack, that people who are suffering these huge social injustices, these , human rights violations, they have this underlying desire to live.

Going back to I don't even remember what episode we talked about it in.  The missionary who went to a hunter gatherer tribe, and when the people who were in the tribe asked him why he did it, he said, oh, it's because my mother committed suicide. And they laughed at him! They had no idea that, they could not even comprehend why somebody would choose to die when that was their everyday struggle, was avoiding death.



And it's just so interesting that you link in this piece to it as well. So could it be that this fascination, this obsession, this desire to end it when facing something we can't buy our way out of is really just some upper middle class entitlement at its finest?

I 100 percent agree. That's why people shit. We're all trying to avoid, avoid, avoid the reality of life, which is eternal suffering.  

I'm trying every day to get better at the eternity of suffering because that is life. And we can't, I mean, yeah, you can opt out and then you opt out as a whole and this is what you get, you know?

Yeah, I was curious as to why it says Jaguar there.

It was the Jaguar. 

My grandma, my grandma 

Yeah, I was watching this documentary of this guy, of the untouched hunter gatherer tribes. And this guy was, like, living with the modern people. And they asked him why, and he was like, I saw my grandma get eaten by a jaguar. And I was like,  My life's pretty kush. 

your life is fucking kush. Your grandma didn't get eaten by a jaguar.

Fifty percent of my grandmas are still alive and kicking. As they near ninety. 

Well, 100 percent of mine are dead, but none of them were eaten by a jaguar. They all died long, painful deaths like everyone is trying to avoid here. And yeah, it was hard on everybody, but it's just what, it's, it's, it's the full circle.

But it's the impulse to make it a little bit easier, right? On them, on the family. Again, the impulse to do it. I so, so

understand. And I can get behind it in those specific, beautiful, affluent white people situations. It's when things get better. 

a little bit more murky, as we said, with the dementia, with the mental illness, it's a lot harder.

And I'm  have my personal beliefs. I'm glad I don't have to be the one to making these decisions for the time being.

Yeah.

 And that's where I'll leave it because at the end of the day, folks,  let's just all agree that equality and death. At the very least, right? That is the bare minimum, dummies! Let's all get on that. Everybody should be able to die equally.

Oh, we all end up in the same place at the end. Well, speaking of the bare minimum. You know what you guys should do at bare minimum? Bare 

We're 

You should  review us  on Apple or Spotify.

We are a nobody podcast, ain't nobody hawking this shit. We didn't used to have hit sitcoms. So tell your friends, lead them on over to the Impolite Society, socialites, , be a part of our social circle.

I guarantee, in the fact that if you've made it this far, that you have your own opinions and thoughts on this topic. And as much as we love ya, we can't hear ya. So, make a friend listen to it, and then have this conversation with them. Or, again If you want us to hear you, please email us at rude at impolite society, podcast.

com. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the topic, your first person experiences from beyond the grave, I guess, or, you know, you're you're just your thoughts on it and you can email us or contact us. We do have socials, , where you can get in touch with us on Tik TOK, Facebook, Instagram,  Impolite Society Podcast. You can find us  📍 there  

we'll catch you later in another two weeks with another rude topic. But in the meantime, in the meantime, guys,  stay curious. Keep marching to the beat of your own drum.  

And remember, help is available. Speak with somebody today. 988 SUICIDE IN CRISIS LIFELINE. Hours available 24 hours. Language English or Spanish. Learn more. 988.  I saw that so

many times. 

So many 

times. 

​



My mom said I talked about sex too much on my podcast so I just switched to death How do you like that Karen?

going the next

I'm just kidding. Thank you for listening, mom.